Moves the Indians should make for the 2nd half

[Gson]

Probably about right. The Indians record this year in games started by each pitcher:

Civale 12-3
Bieber 10-4
Plesac 11-8
McKenzie 7-8
Morgan 6-7
Mejia 2-9
Allen 1-6

Hentges has started 12 games but in most of them he only pitched 2-4 innings so I'm leaving him out.

The White Sox have four starters with 24-27 starts. Civale and Bieber have 15 and 14 so it's fair to say they've each missed 10-12 starts for a total of 20-24. Mejia and Allen have combined for 18 starts with Indians going 3-15. So if Civale and Bieber (22-7) had taken Mejia and Allen's starts (3-15) plus a couple of Hentges' starts I could see them going something like 15-5 instead of 3-17 which would be 12 losses that would have been wins, giving the Tribe a record of 76-52 and putting them one game ahead of the White Sox.

This is assuming nothing changed with Plesac.

By the way, Civale has been extremely fortunate with run support this year. In the 12 games he started that the Indians won, the Tribe has scored 11, 10, 9, 9, 8, 8, 7, 7, 4, 4, 4, and 3 runs. This is the opposite of 2019, IIRC, when they couldn't buy a run when Civale pitched.

Quantrill has been the opposite. Just in the last five weeks he's had five starts where he gave up 0, 1, 1, 1, and 2 runs in six innings or more and the Indians still lost due to lack of run support or a bullpen implosion. Cal is 4-2 but should be 10-2 if he won all the games where he allowed two or fewer runs.

If the "eleven" number could somehow become reality.. the Indians would lead the CWSox by by more than just percentage points.. as two of the eleven games lost were against the CWSox.. when the Indians scored 0 and 1 run, respectively..

It's baseball...

 

[Urban]

Even better then, IMO.

Let them ride an aging Lance Lynn of all people.

Don't understand the "Lance Lynn of all people". I know he's getting up there in age and looks like he has a pillow under his jersey. Other than his missed 2016 Tommy John I don't believe he's ever hit the disabled list. 29 or more starts every year dating back to 2012, with the exception of the shortened 2020 season. Career 3.49 ERA and having his best season. Think a 2yr $38m extension is a pretty good deal for the White Sox.

Think Lynn-Giolito-Cease is a pretty good trio to ride with in '22 and '23. Cease is living up to his prospect hype this season and is only 25. Maybe they get something from Keuchel in those years too. Think they'd be smart to not pay Rodon big bucks. And we'll see if/how well Kopech transitions.

 

[Criznit]

Don't understand the "Lance Lynn of all people". I know he's getting up there in age and looks like he has a pillow under his jersey. Other than his missed 2016 Tommy John I don't believe he's ever hit the disabled list. 29 or more starts every year dating back to 2012, with the exception of the shortened 2020 season. Career 3.49 ERA and having his best season. Think a 2yr $38m extension is a pretty good deal for the White Sox.

Think Lynn-Giolito-Cease is a pretty good trio to ride with in '22 and '23. Cease is living up to his prospect hype this season and is only 25. Maybe they get something from Keuchel in those years too. Think they'd be smart to not pay Rodon big bucks. And we'll see if/how well Kopech transitions.

Additionally they could add a weapon to the rotation in the offseason. If there is anyone in the division right now ready to write a check, it's the ChiSox.

 

[Gson]

Additionally they could add a weapon to the rotation in the offseason. If there is anyone in the division right now ready to write a check, it's the ChiSox.

Bauer Bundy Gray Ray Rodon & Syndergaard.. and many many others.. with appropriate opt outs.. would give the CWSox plenty of choices..

 

[CATS44]

If our FO in the off season made too huge FA signings....Bieber and Civale...this board would be all over themselves, proclaiming a division title in 2022.

If it did that AND added a significant bat, this board would be signing up for WS tix.

Any team...and that includes Baltimore and Pittsburgh...that added Bieber and Civale over the off season would get some preseason love as a contender.

Any team currently with a near .500 record would be among the favorites in their division with Biebs and Civale.

And if any team in the AL Central...KC, Detroit, or Minny...added those two, this forum would go into meltdown.

We WILL add those two, but most folks just shrug.

 

[Criznit]

If our FO in the off season made too huge FA signings....Bieber and Civale...this board would be all over themselves, proclaiming a division title in 2022.

If it did that AND added a significant bat, this board would be signing up for WS tix.

Any team...and that includes Baltimore and Pittsburgh...that added Bieber and Civale over the off season would get some preseason love as a contender.

Any team currently with a near .500 record would be among the favorites in their division with Biebs and Civale.

And if any team in the AL Central...KC, Detroit, or Minny...added those two, this forum would go into meltdown.

We WILL add those two, but most folks just shrug.

A lot of assumption here, a lot of twisting and a whole lot of homerism.

I will go ahead and "meltdown" now, as I expect Chicago to be a mover/shaker this off-season.

 

[CATS44]

A lot of assumption here, a lot of twisting and a whole lot of homerism.

I will go ahead and "meltdown" now, as I expect Chicago to be a mover/shaker this off-season.

Baloney.

If we brought in two major FAs like Biebs and Civale, this board would light up like a Christmas tree.

And if any of the Twins, Tigers, or Royals did the same, this board would go into full melt down.

 

[CATS44]

Heck, every year KC adds somebody, and fans declare that they have passed the Tribe.

And others aver that the Tigers young talent has finally passed the Tribe.

Neither has happened yet, in spite of our rotation being crippled beyond recognition.

And it is highly unlikely to happen any time soon.

When the Bomba Squad had a freak season, when almost every position player had a career year, a lot of fans said that the Twins would rule the division for years to come.

That didn't happen, either.

None of those teams had or have the pitching to overcome the Guardians.

 

[Criznit]

Baloney.

If we brought in two major FAs like Biebs and Civale, this board would light up like a Christmas tree.

And if any of the Twins, Tigers, or Royals did the same, this board would go into full melt down.

Nah.

Baltimore could add both Civale and Bieber and would still not be considered a contender on any level by me - I won't try to speak for other people.

The Tigers are rumored to be a potential spender this off-season. As a team already rising up I won't "meltdown" if they end up bringing in top FAs or trade for some upgrades. Same for the others as they are not on the level of a Baltimore or Pittsburg.

Now I will "meltdown" if our division mates (say the Sox, Royals and Twins) go bonkers and spend/add to all become legit "contenders" and we stand pat. If we sell I won't. If we buy I won't.

Now as far as the Indians go - adding a bat should be pursed. And even if we get a monster - we will be picked to finish 2nd in the division no matter what the ChiSox do.

Current record - 2nd in the central 5th in the east and 4th (practically 5th) in west.

 

[CDAV45]

Baloney.

If we brought in two major FAs like Biebs and Civale, this board would light up like a Christmas tree.

And if any of the Twins, Tigers, or Royals did the same, this board would go into full melt down.

Depends CATS. If they already have a solid pitching staff and bring in 2 FA's like Bieber and Civale without addressing the obvious needs/weaknesses then I doubt the fan base gets overly excited. We have the pitching staff to win, and we don't need a total makeover of the lineup. Just get a bat or 2 and there's plenty of room to do that. If that happens then we're in like Flynn. If it doesn't then everything will have to go right, which rarely happens.

It's odd, because I feel like you, Criz and I feel very similar about a lot of this, but something is getting lost in translation. So let's take it point by point:
1. No team can win without a solid pitching staff. On this we agree, but I think this organization more than has that covered and so do you.
2. While you don't need the league's best offense, the best teams have good ones. This team could easily be in the top 3rd with a good bat or 2 added. If you want to significantly increase the odds of taking the division back they'll need to generate a little more offense.
3. Defensively they were shaky initially, but have been better since the addition of Straw. We've also had Zimmer, Mercado, and Johnson in the corner OF's and you couldn't buy better defense with all the money in the world. I think you and I both like Amed and honestly, I can accept his defense at SS if he continues to hit like he has. Having said that, I think it would serve Amed and the Guardians better if he were at 2B and Gimenez/Arias at SS. JRam is solid at 3B. Gimenez/Miller are solid at 2B. Bradley plays a much better 1B after he reshaped his body. Our catchers can't hit worth a shit, but they are as good as it gets behind the dish.

We're on the verge my friend and the missing pieces aren't in the pitching staff even though a good LHRP could be of use. In fact, I think there is going to be a big SP logjam by the middle of next season. Certainly by 2023. The future of this organization is bright because of that. They've set themselves up nicely to bolster the lineup if they choose to do so. The payroll is the lowest in the league. They are getting a new minority owner. They just signed a new lease deal through 2036, and they will be kicking off a new era of Guardians baseball. I think the stars are aligning for us Cleveland fans.

 

[Criznit]

Depends CATS. If they already have a solid pitching staff and bring in 2 FA's like Bieber and Civale without addressing the obvious needs/weaknesses then I doubt the fan base gets overly excited. We have the pitching staff to win, and we don't need a total makeover of the lineup. Just get a bat or 2 and there's plenty of room to do that. If that happens then we're in like Flynn. If it doesn't then everything will have to go right, which rarely happens.

It's odd, because I feel like you, Criz and I feel very similar about a lot of this, but something is getting lost in translation. So let's take it point by point:
1. No team can win without a solid pitching staff. On this we agree, but I think this organization more than has that covered and so do you.
2. While you don't need the league's best offense, the best teams have good ones. This team could easily be in the top 3rd with a good bat or 2 added. If you want to significantly increase the odds of taking the division back they'll need to generate a little more offense.
3. Defensively they were shaky initially, but have been better since the addition of Straw. We've also had Zimmer, Mercado, and Johnson in the corner OF's and you couldn't buy better defense with all the money in the world. I think you and I both like Amed and honestly, I can accept his defense at SS if he continues to hit like he has. Having said that, I think it would serve Amed and the Guardians better if he were at 2B and Gimenez/Arias at SS. JRam is solid at 3B. Gimenez/Miller are solid at 2B. Bradley plays a much better 1B after he reshaped his body. Our catchers can't hit worth a shit, but they are as good as it gets behind the dish.

We're on the verge my friend and the missing pieces aren't in the pitching staff even though a good LHRP could be of use. In fact, I think there is going to be a big SP logjam by the middle of next season. Certainly by 2023. The future of this organization is bright because of that. They've set themselves up nicely to bolster the lineup if they choose to do so. The payroll is the lowest in the league. They are getting a new minority owner. They just signed a new lease deal through 2036, and they will be kicking off a new era of Guardians baseball. I think the stars are aligning for us Cleveland fans.

I will say this - if the tribe does go out and buys 2 top FA this offseason I will be surprised and this board will "light up like a Christmas tree". Why? Because that would be way out of the norm for how this team normally operates. However, it sort of lines up for that to happen for 2022 based on payroll/needs. However, extending Bieber, JRam and/or Civale could end up eating that cash...

Starting pitching remains a strength and in/by 2023 we might have a rotation that is ridiculous. We are also seeing our top hitting prospects close in on the majors and we should see some of them later this year (possibly) and next year (likely).

I am good with 2022 being a sort year. If we are lucky as we start seeing what Arias, Jones, OGonz, etc. can do, we see a breakout or 2.

We should be playing to win it all in 2022, but 2023 looks like it should be the start of the next run, IMO.

 

[Gson]

The continuing saga of our no hit/can't stay on the field catching group just reached the critical list.. something has to be done about the catching.. something important and relevant.. The comments regarding teams that have good offenses.. or good pitching or good defense are all valid.. but, one of these subject: Catching is also true.. no team wins it all without it !

 

[Mott the Hoople]

The continuing saga of our no hit/can't stay on the field catching group just reached the critical list.. something has to be done about the catching.. something important and relevant.. The comments regarding teams that have good offenses.. or good pitching or good defense are all valid.. but, one of these subject: Catching is also true.. no team wins it all without it !

That is true. But good defense is critical for a MLB catcher. They can save runs probably more than any other position. However, it should not be to the total exclusion of offense. All Star quality catchers do both.
As for the Guards next season, I believe Perez is as good as gone. I'd like to keep Hedges, but maybe with not so much exposure. I also just don't think Naylor would be ready for the bigs next season. So, yeah, I think we should be in the market for a catcher.
There were rumblings the Giants would consider making Bart available. But he would have a high price.

 

[Criznit]

That is true. But good defense is critical for a MLB catcher. They can save runs probably more than any other position. However, it should not be to the total exclusion of offense. All Star quality catchers do both.
As for the Guards next season, I believe Perez is as good as gone. I'd like to keep Hedges, but maybe with not so much exposure. I also just don't think Naylor would be ready for the bigs next season. So, yeah, I think we should be in the market for a catcher.
There were rumblings the Giants would consider making Bart available. But he would have a high price.

I am pretty jazzed to see what Lavastida ends up brining to the table. He should spend a lot of time/start 2022 in AAA with Naylor repeating at Akron. If Lavastida performs well he will get called up. Current outlook or 2022 - Hedges, Perez or a FA will be brought in as a bridge to an internal option which would be Mr. Lavastida sooner than later.

Or trade Naylor(s) + for Bart?

 

[Gson]

I am pretty jazzed to see what Lavastida ends up brining to the table. He should spend a lot of time/start 2022 in AAA with Naylor repeating at Akron. If Lavastida performs well he will get called up. Current outlook or 2022 - Hedges, Perez or a FA will be brought in as a bridge to an internal option which would be Mr. Lavastida sooner than later.

Or trade Naylor(s) + for Bart?

Keibert Ruiz was just brought up as the Nats "catcher of the future".. making Riley Adams, at least, partially expendable.. Anyone want a black belt behind the plate?..it would make a runner looking to crash into him think twice.. ?