Pitching

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

So ... what are Chris and Tito doing with the starting pitching. Zack M said it more clearly than Mandy ... but McK stays in rotation and gets at least one more start. They don't know about the starter on Wed. Can be Plutko or someone else.....

By now you know what you are going to do with Clevinger and Plesac. You come out and either say that they have done their time (seen good improvement on maturity) or you say that they have been optioned for a period longer than 10 days that has been discussed with them already but stays in the locker room. To let this linger beyond today is to start creating questions in the locker room where Plutko, Leone, Clevinger and Plesac are wondering about their status on the club and trade/waiver issues.

Even if you are considering moving Cookie to the pen if he cannot find his form today ... you can say that Clev and Plesac have done their time and having 7 men all capable of filling the 5/6 slots in the rotation is a problem that many teams would love to have. Thus, for now, we are penciling in Clevinger for Wednesday and looking for how to juggle the rest for next weekend. At least, you are making known that the two are with the team and you are not considering trading them unless like every other player (you get blown out of the water). But, to stay silent, is just letting rumors to start and flourish.

Someone yelled at me on another site that trying to trade Kluber and/or Bauer during all the off-season was letting the uncertainty linger too long and effect the guys. The poster was saying no way do professional players like Bauer let things like a prolong rumor mill affect their performance ... ahhh .... between that and injuries (trying to prove his worth by fighting through them) ... I think any extra disruption is never worth it. No one wants to be left dangling in the wind for too long. Even look at Lindor, I think he has been trying to press too much to set himself up for next off season.

A good manager/gm sets the expectations and let the players know where they stand (and public when needed to keep the twitter rumors at bay).

I don't understand why you think the information publicly available to you is the same information privately available to those in the organization.

 

[petes999]

I don't understand why you think the information publicly available to you is the same information privately available to those in the organization.

Just saying, if punishment is over, why not just say it and be straight forward with media (as if Clev is starting Wed, his throwing program needs to be adjusted accordingly)? Why would it be such a secret that a GM would appear clueless to media.

Longer they wait (as usually they announce starters 3 days out, unless they are really clueless or figuring out a bullpen day), the more likely it is
1) Trade is coming
2) Cleveland is going to push service time issues (creating bad blood)
3) Tito is in bad shape where they cannot loop him into how he wants to run this clubhouse and thus everyone is left hanging in the wind.

 

[jup]

@jup or anyone else... any thoughts on Triston McKenzie's mechanics? To me, it looks like he kind of snaps off the pitch at the end in a way that worries me.

Just trying to see if what I'm seeing is a thing, or if I'm making shit up.

So I can't find any decent video of him from the front view that isn't years old, so it is a little hard to tell certain things. And clearly there is no high speed video publicly available either, which is really the only way to truly analyze mechanics. But I think what you are referring to with the "snap" at the end is really a deceleration thing.

Pitching mechanics really come in 2 phases - acceleration and deceleration. Accel injuries are typified by the soft tissue that is facing the plate during the delivery decel by those facing away. So once the ball is released, you have to slow an arm moving 95 mph at the fingertips down in a very very short time (just think of how long it would take to stop your car going 95 once you slammed on the breaks for comparison). The breaks on your body are the larger muscles on the back and in the shoulder (lats,superspinatus, teres minor/major, etc.). But one of the critical factors in slowing it down is shoulder rotation itself because that allows your arm to clear your body.

McKenzie doesn't seem to have real good shoulder rotation, so his arm seems to hit his body and therefore recoil back towards home plate. That is the snap I think you are seeing. His arm bouncing back towards home plate where it was traveling towards second an instant before. Think of your car being rubber like a hand ball and bouncing backwards after a 95mph encounter with a tree or wall. That is kind of what their arms do. Watch his arm closely and you will see it hit his back and then the next instant be headed back to the plate


Guys that don't rotate their shoulders well after the ball is delivered have their arm "recoil" and put a lot of strain on their shoulder. The bicep area of the humerus hits the peck area of the chest and comes to a dead stop while the rest of the arm is still zipping along. That creates a fulcrum were the lower arm literally "tries to pry" the rounded head of the humerus out of the shoulder socket. Lots of rotator cuff and labrum issues.

Think Danny Salazar in some ways as he didn't decel real well, even though he had other issues as well. So I am not saying this or that, lest I be admonished and keep the narrative rolling that I am "negative" about all other Indians pitchers except a past one, because I don't have the correct film angle or slow motion to really tell. However, my trained eye says that he will have shoulder problems if he has problems, unless a change in decel mechanics is something that he focuses on.

Probably doesn't answer your question real satisfactorily, but without a dissertation, which this is already approaching, and a whole bunch of video .... this is the best you get from me at least.

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

So I can't find any decent video of him from the front view that isn't years old, so it is a little hard to tell certain things. And clearly there is no high speed video publicly available either, which is really the only way to truly analyze mechanics. But I think what you are referring to with the "snap" at the end is really a deceleration thing.

Pitching mechanics really come in 2 phases - acceleration and deceleration. Accel injuries are typified by the soft tissue that is facing the plate during the delivery decel by those facing away. So once the ball is released, you have to slow an arm moving 95 mph at the fingertips down in a very very short time (just think of how long it would take to stop your car going 95 once you slammed on the breaks for comparison). The breaks on your body are the larger muscles on the back and in the shoulder (lats,superspinatus, teres minor/major, etc.). But one of the critical factors in slowing it down is shoulder rotation itself because that allows your arm to clear your body.

McKenzie doesn't seem to have real good shoulder rotation, so his arm seems to hit his body and therefore recoil back towards home plate. That is the snap I think you are seeing. His arm bouncing back towards home plate where it was traveling towards second an instant before. Think of your car being rubber like a hand ball and bouncing backwards after a 95mph encounter with a tree or wall. That is kind of what their arms do. Watch his arm closely and you will see it hit his back and then the next instant be headed back to the plate


Guys that don't rotate their shoulders well after the ball is delivered have their arm "recoil" and put a lot of strain on their shoulder. The bicep area of the humerus hits the peck area of the chest and comes to a dead stop while the rest of the arm is still zipping along. That creates a fulcrum were the lower arm literally "tries to pry" the rounded head of the humerus out of the shoulder socket. Lots of rotator cuff and labrum issues.

Think Danny Salazar in some ways as he didn't decel real well, even though he had other issues as well. So I am not saying this or that, lest I be admonished and keep the narrative rolling that I am "negative" about all other Indians pitchers except a past one, because I don't have the correct film angle or slow motion to really tell. However, my trained eye says that he will have shoulder problems if he has problems, unless a change in decel mechanics is something that he focuses on.

Probably doesn't answer your question real satisfactorily, but without a dissertation, which this is already approaching, and a whole bunch of video .... this is the best you get from me at least.

First, that's very insightful. Thanks as always.

Second, it's not what I was referring to. When I tried to find video of his delivery, I came across the same low-res Twitter videos you did. (Guessing you googled "Triston McKenzie Pitching Ninja" as well? If so, then I know my google-fu is at least on the right track looking for the right resources on this sort of thing. ) and at least in those videos, I didn't get the same feeling I did watching live last night.

When I see a pitcher throw, the entire arm seems to be used as a sling. There's a smooth wave of power that starts at the legs and core, and moves all the way through the fingertips. I think Kluber is a great example of this. It's a smooth delivery with very little violence. If you hooked the end of his arm up to a device to measure the power being generated, it would be a very nice curve.

What I thought I saw from McKenzie was disjointment between his forearm and his upper arm. Almost as if he was trying to accelerate his hand as he let go of the pitch. Either by flexing his forearm muscles, or by slightly decelerating from his upper arm to his elbow, so the forearm, wrist and hand sort of "snapped" forward.

Maybe it's nothing. Maybe I'm just not used to seeing pitchers with McKenzie's delivery style--as I can't remember the last time we had a pitcher on our team who threw the way he does. But, it's just something I thought I noticed last night.

Thanks as always.

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

So once the ball is released, you have to slow an arm moving 95 mph at the fingertips down in a very very short time The breaks [brakes] on your body are the larger muscles on the back and in the shoulder (lats,superspinatus, teres minor/major, etc.). But one of the critical factors in slowing it down is shoulder rotation itself because that allows your arm to clear your body.

McKenzie doesn't seem to have real good shoulder rotation, so his arm seems to hit his body and therefore recoil back towards home plate.

Guys that don't rotate their shoulders well after the ball is delivered have their arm "recoil" and put a lot of strain on their shoulder. The bicep area of the humerus hits the peck area of the chest and comes to a dead stop while the rest of the arm is still zipping along. That creates a fulcrum were the lower arm literally "tries to pry" the rounded head of the humerus out of the shoulder socket. Lots of rotator cuff and labrum issues.

I watched the video and you can see that after releasing the ball his forearm slams against his opposite hip and that is what stops the arm from moving forward, not so much the braking action of the "larger muscles on the back and in the shoulder". You're saying if McKenzie rotated his upper body more his arm wouldn't collide with his hip but would go past it; IOW "clear your body".

You think all these collisions with the hip will stress the head of the humerus and cause rotator cuff and labrum issues. I don't know since I'm not a doctor, but I'm skeptical that having his arm hit his hip would create all that much stress on the shoulder. I would think more stress would be created if the arm just kept going, creating stretch on the joint as it reaches the end of the range of movement.

The Indians say they want to find a motion for him that is low stress and allows him to pitch without injury. Let's hope they can because that looks like one very special arm.

 

[jup]

I watched the video and you can see that after releasing the ball his forearm slams against his opposite hip and that is what stops the arm from moving forward, not so much the braking action of the "larger muscles on the back and in the shoulder". You're saying if McKenzie rotated his upper body more his arm wouldn't collide with his hip but would go past it; IOW "clear your body".

You think all these collisions with the hip will stress the head of the humerus and cause rotator cuff and labrum issues. I don't know since I'm not a doctor, but I'm skeptical that having his arm hit his hip would create all that much stress on the shoulder. I would think more stress would be created if the arm just kept going, creating stretch on the joint as it reaches the end of the range of movement.

The Indians say they want to find a motion for him that is low stress and allows him to pitch without injury. Let's hope they can because that looks like one very special arm.

Well I didn't want to write a dissertation. But .......

Don't let your shoulders rotate, just stand normally. Don't let your elbow bend. Now try to touch your opposite hip and see where your arm hits. ?????Maybe your peck on the same side as the arm you are testing ?????

Now take you hand, and without letting the elbow of the arm you are testing bend, or rotating your shoulders, pull your wrist towards your hip and see what happens to the shoulder of the arm you are testing ??????

Now these things are moving at 90mph, and even though it doesn't happen to Tristen exactly that way, he experiences some smaller percentage of that. But it is repeated over 100 times every 5 days plus another 40 ish every bullpen. Even if he doesn't experience but a portion of what you should be feeling (located to the outside and back of the shoulder), the force he is exerting at 90 MPH is far greater and is done repetitively over a long period of time.

Maybe this will help you understand.

Let me know - if you do it correctly, you should feel it in your shoulder for many minutes after you do it several times. A fatigue or slight discomfort that goes from your shoulder down towards a point just above, and between the bicep and tricep on the outside of your arm.

 

[jup]

I watched the video and you can see that after releasing the ball his forearm slams against his opposite hip and that is what stops the arm from moving forward, not so much the braking action of the "larger muscles on the back and in the shoulder". You're saying if McKenzie rotated his upper body more his arm wouldn't collide with his hip but would go past it; IOW "clear your body".

You think all these collisions with the hip will stress the head of the humerus and cause rotator cuff and labrum issues. I don't know since I'm not a doctor, but I'm skeptical that having his arm hit his hip would create all that much stress on the shoulder. I would think more stress would be created if the arm just kept going, creating stretch on the joint as it reaches the end of the range of movement.

The Indians say they want to find a motion for him that is low stress and allows him to pitch without injury. Let's hope they can because that looks like one very special arm.

PS Wham, you don't want your arm to slam, COLLISIONS with anything aren't good, hip/peck or a black cat. That is the job of those shoulder muscles/rotation => NOT LET YOUR ARM slam into anything => very valuable piece of machinery if you are talking major league starting pitcher.

 

[Obscured By Clouds]

Jup, I am most interested on what you are seeing with Cookie. What is this, third game in a row he couldn't make it to the 5th? At this point I see two pitchers that are better that Cookie in purgatory, and I think Cookie could do a far better job than someone like Cimber in the BP.

 

[jup]

Jup, I am most interested on what you are seeing with Cookie. What is this, third game in a row he couldn't make it to the 5th? At this point I see two pitchers that are better that Cookie in purgatory, and I think Cookie could do a far better job than someone like Cimber in the BP.

Haven't sat down and watched any of Cookies starts this year in detail, but does this surprise anyone ???

He was already trending this way before Luekemia, just like Kluber, at least that is what my eyes told me. He is getting up there in age at 33 when stamina and loss of stuff happens even without illness.

Small sample size either way. For those that don't want to hear it, there are those good starts. For those that think it could be accurate, there are the recent starts. A perfect topic for everyone to come down on one side or the other ala Kluber and his loss of velocity that was so hotly debated on IBI.

 

[CDAV45]

Jup could be right, but I'm not sold on that just yet. His stuff seems as good as ever, but it looks like he lost his identity as a pitcher. It appears that he is trying to fall in line with the new idea of pitching your FB up in the zone and working the breaking ball off of that. That's not Cookie. His FB is heavy and his off speed pitches work off of that. This is just my observation and I could be wrong, but yesterday especially, that seemed to be quite apparent. If what I'm saying has any credence, then he'll need time to reestablish himself or get back to who he was. It's like he's stuck in the middle right now.

 

[LL3]

So I can't find any decent video of him from the front view that isn't years old, so it is a little hard to tell certain things. And clearly there is no high speed video publicly available either, which is really the only way to truly analyze mechanics. But I think what you are referring to with the "snap" at the end is really a deceleration thing.

Pitching mechanics really come in 2 phases - acceleration and deceleration. Accel injuries are typified by the soft tissue that is facing the plate during the delivery decel by those facing away. So once the ball is released, you have to slow an arm moving 95 mph at the fingertips down in a very very short time (just think of how long it would take to stop your car going 95 once you slammed on the breaks for comparison). The breaks on your body are the larger muscles on the back and in the shoulder (lats,superspinatus, teres minor/major, etc.). But one of the critical factors in slowing it down is shoulder rotation itself because that allows your arm to clear your body.

McKenzie doesn't seem to have real good shoulder rotation, so his arm seems to hit his body and therefore recoil back towards home plate. That is the snap I think you are seeing. His arm bouncing back towards home plate where it was traveling towards second an instant before. Think of your car being rubber like a hand ball and bouncing backwards after a 95mph encounter with a tree or wall. That is kind of what their arms do. Watch his arm closely and you will see it hit his back and then the next instant be headed back to the plate


Guys that don't rotate their shoulders well after the ball is delivered have their arm "recoil" and put a lot of strain on their shoulder. The bicep area of the humerus hits the peck area of the chest and comes to a dead stop while the rest of the arm is still zipping along. That creates a fulcrum were the lower arm literally "tries to pry" the rounded head of the humerus out of the shoulder socket. Lots of rotator cuff and labrum issues.

Think Danny Salazar in some ways as he didn't decel real well, even though he had other issues as well. So I am not saying this or that, lest I be admonished and keep the narrative rolling that I am "negative" about all other Indians pitchers except a past one, because I don't have the correct film angle or slow motion to really tell. However, my trained eye says that he will have shoulder problems if he has problems, unless a change in decel mechanics is something that he focuses on.

Probably doesn't answer your question real satisfactorily, but without a dissertation, which this is already approaching, and a whole bunch of video .... this is the best you get from me at least.

So what you are REALLY saying is that he is a flash in the pan and we should trade McKenzie tomorrow...just admit it.

 

[mopete12]

Carrasco looks lost, and he sounds lost in his post game quotes (sample below). Even pitchers with good stuff are going to be hit hard if they can't hit their target. The velocity is concerning, first 2 innings his fastball was 93-95, 3rd inning it was 92-93, and the 4th inning it was 90-92mph. Not sure if it's stamina or related to the mechanical issues he's having that are impacting his control. He seemed to throw less and less fastballs as the start went on as well, not sure if that is him or Taylor, but the Tigers did most of their damage on his off-speed pitches.

“I don’t know, man. To be honest with you, I don’t know what happened,” Carrasco said on a Zoom call. “I lost my control right there. ... Yeah, it was great in the bullpen. Even the first inning, I didn’t feel so great. I don’t know. I’m losing my slider. I couldn’t throw my slider for a strike. Fastball everywhere. I don’t know what happened there the second time through the lineup.”

 

[LL3]

Carrasco looks lost, and he sounds lost in his post game quotes (sample below). Even pitchers with good stuff are going to be hit hard if they can't hit their target. The velocity is concerning, first 2 innings his fastball was 93-95, 3rd inning it was 92-93, and the 4th inning it was 90-92mph. Not sure if it's stamina or related to the mechanical issues he's having that are impacting his control. He seemed to throw less and less fastballs as the start went on as well, not sure if that is him or Taylor, but the Tigers did most of their damage on his off-speed pitches.

“I don’t know, man. To be honest with you, I don’t know what happened,” Carrasco said on a Zoom call. “I lost my control right there. ... Yeah, it was great in the bullpen. Even the first inning, I didn’t feel so great. I don’t know. I’m losing my slider. I couldn’t throw my slider for a strike. Fastball everywhere. I don’t know what happened there the second time through the lineup.”

Big differences first time through order...hard to imagine fatigue is not some factor, but obviously that is still just speculation.

 

[jup]

Carrasco looks lost, and he sounds lost in his post game quotes (sample below). Even pitchers with good stuff are going to be hit hard if they can't hit their target. The velocity is concerning, first 2 innings his fastball was 93-95, 3rd inning it was 92-93, and the 4th inning it was 90-92mph. Not sure if it's stamina or related to the mechanical issues he's having that are impacting his control. He seemed to throw less and less fastballs as the start went on as well, not sure if that is him or Taylor, but the Tigers did most of their damage on his off-speed pitches.

“I don’t know, man. To be honest with you, I don’t know what happened,” Carrasco said on a Zoom call. “I lost my control right there. ... Yeah, it was great in the bullpen. Even the first inning, I didn’t feel so great. I don’t know. I’m losing my slider. I couldn’t throw my slider for a strike. Fastball everywhere. I don’t know what happened there the second time through the lineup.”

So it is no surprise that Carlos has seen velocity drops from start to finish of a games for a long time. It was just that when he was lights out, no one really noticed. His arm fatigues, it is just part of who he is as a pitcher.

Don't pay too much attention to those late inning spikes, often they are just characterized by few to no pitches

Now the decline is steeper, lots more uniform and is happening somewhat sooner. And that is a clear sign of arm fatigue in his case. And when the rest of your body isn't in the kind of shape to help support your velo, and it is mostly arm generated, that is what you will see.

A little older with the illness possibly having a lot to do with his overall strength/fitness, and you could easily get that type average velocity decline over a game.

 

[KluberSociety]

@jup just wanted to add, the late inning spikes are usually due to starter/relief splits. Carrasco pitched some relief last year and Brooks buckets by which inning they pitch in, not which inning of their appearance it is. Since there's no way to filter out starting vs. relief it's generally probably just most helpful to bucket by "times through order" rather than by inning. Of course you don't see that 1 to 3 inning drop that way though.