Pitching

[LL3]

Biebs now has the arsenal to be an ELITE PITCHER for the longevity of his career, Castillo will have good results as long as he keeps running it up there 99. He has elite stuff. There is a difference between elite stuff and elite pitcher.

Looking at your pre-season comments on Bieber it seems as if you see him as making big strides forward this season...if so, good for him and the Tribe. An impressive leap!

 

[LL3]

@jup What is your current assessment of Plesac as a pitcher now/in the next few years? I realize some non-pitching factors may come into play, too.

EDIT : Forgot to add --

 

[Lee]

From a repertoire standpoint for sure.

He is a lot like Biebs was when he came up, just has elite stuff which Biebs did not. Biebs has improved tremendously on the repertoire side. Castillo hasn't.

So Biebs WAS a 2 pitch pitcher, SL/FB, Castillo IS a 2 pitch pitcher CH/FB. Castillo throws it 90/99, Biebs like 87/93. Castillo can survive on 2 pitches in that ELITE SPEED range, Biebs couldn't. Biebs did a great job of trapping hitters between those 2 pitches speed wise when he came up. Castillo still does. The difference is Biebs added to his bag of tricks and now he beats them slower with his CB, and further traps them speed wise with a cutter so he can continue to beat them at the fast end with his FB.

Biebs now has the arsenal to be an ELITE PITCHER for the longevity of his career, Castillo will have good results as long as he keeps running it up there 99. He has elite stuff. There is a difference between elite stuff and elite pitcher.

Out of curiosity, what do you do for a living? Anything with physics? You have such a high understanding of this stuff, its great, but just curious.

 

[CDAV45]

From a repertoire standpoint for sure.

He is a lot like Biebs was when he came up, just has elite stuff which Biebs did not. Biebs has improved tremendously on the repertoire side. Castillo hasn't.

So Biebs WAS a 2 pitch pitcher, SL/FB, Castillo IS a 2 pitch pitcher CH/FB. Castillo throws it 90/99, Biebs like 87/93. Castillo can survive on 2 pitches in that ELITE SPEED range, Biebs couldn't. Biebs did a great job of trapping hitters between those 2 pitches speed wise when he came up. Castillo still does. The difference is Biebs added to his bag of tricks and now he beats them slower with his CB, and further traps them speed wise with a cutter so he can continue to beat them at the fast end with his FB.

Biebs now has the arsenal to be an ELITE PITCHER for the longevity of his career, Castillo will have good results as long as he keeps running it up there 99. He has elite stuff. There is a difference between elite stuff and elite pitcher.

Agree Jup. I would also add that Bieber's FB gained a tick or 2. He frequently hist 95 now where he didn't when he was first called up. In my eyes, what seperates Bieber is his ability to control the ball. He seems to be able to locate whatever pitch he decides to throw. Not only locate it, but locate it in the zone.

I've always thought Castillo was blessed with a rare arm. Like you said, he gets by with 2 pitches well........because he can. The development of a 3rd pitch often seems to come out of necessity. Regardless, Castillo does not have Bieber's ability to control the ball and likely never will.

It seems to me that the Indians prefer to develop a guy already displaying control rather than trying to "reign in" a power arm. I'm not saying that is 100% accurate, but more often than not. Would you agree with that or am I mistaken.

 

[jup]

Agree Jup. I would also add that Bieber's FB gained a tick or 2. He frequently hist 95 now where he didn't when he was first called up. In my eyes, what seperates Bieber is his ability to control the ball. He seems to be able to locate whatever pitch he decides to throw. Not only locate it, but locate it in the zone.

I've always thought Castillo was blessed with a rare arm. Like you said, he gets by with 2 pitches well........because he can. The development of a 3rd pitch often seems to come out of necessity. Regardless, Castillo does not have Bieber's ability to control the ball and likely never will.

It seems to me that the Indians prefer to develop a guy already displaying control rather than trying to "reign in" a power arm. I'm not saying that is 100% accurate, but more often than not. Would you agree with that or am I mistaken.

Yep, that is the Indian way, command over raw stuff.

 

[jup]

Out of curiosity, what do you do for a living? Anything with physics? You have such a high understanding of this stuff, its great, but just curious.

Trained as a chemical engineer, but mostly worked as a petroleum engineer running steam floods for heavy oil versus in a refinery where most Chem Es are employeed.

Then into private business when I got tired of the "corporate world". As you probably have guessed, not a real PC person, and corporate suits didn't really fit my style.

 

[Lee]

Trained as a chemical engineer, but mostly worked as a petroleum engineer running steam floods for heavy oil versus in a refinery where most Chem Es are employeed.

Then into private business when I got tired of the "corporate world". As you probably have guessed, not a real PC person, and corporate suits didn't really fit my style.

Makes allot of sense, I figured something technical....My Grandpa was a Chemical Engineer. He twice tried to join the Army during WWII but since he worked on airplane fuel in his state side job, they refused to let him join twice.

And to tie this in to the Indians thread, my Grandpa played baseball in college at Case, lol (Before it merged with Western Reserve)

 

[xmasbuck]

my grandfather was a mechanical engineer...with a lousy spin rate

 

[LL3]

my grandfather was a mechanical engineer...with a lousy spin rate

pine tar - inexpensive and easy to apply

 

[Lee]

pine tar - inexpensive and easy to apply

I prefer anal lube, but to each their own.

 

[jup]

So hitters use the flight of the ball more than anything for early pitch ID.

The guess (no exact proof but lots of hitters studied), that pitches need to stay “in the tunnel” for about 30’ to 35’ feet from release to tunnel effectively. With CB’s (true 12 to 6) that is next to impossible.

Someone posted a Pitching Ninja overlay that I thought was very descriptive. Here are some snapshots from it to highlight the concept

On the left top row => out of hand
Middle top row => probably 30' feet out of hand (FB)
Bottom left => probably 40-45 feet out of hand (FB)

As you can see from the series of pictures, out of the hand a CB moves up and then comes back down across the flight of a FB while continuing to its final location. But there is an obvious "hump" in the flight path between the two. And that hump leaves CB's as one of the easiest pitches for hitters to gain early identification of.

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

So hitters use the flight of the ball more than anything for early pitch ID.

The guess (no exact proof but lots of hitters studied), that pitches need to stay “in the tunnel” for about 30’ to 35’ feet from release to tunnel effectively. With CB’s (true 12 to 6) that is next to impossible.

Someone posted a Pitching Ninja overlay that I thought was very descriptive. Here are some snapshots from it to highlight the concept

On the left top row => out of hand
Middle top row => probably 30' feet out of hand (FB)
Bottom left => probably 40-45 feet out of hand (FB)

As you can see from the series of pictures, out of the hand a CB moves up and then comes back down across the flight of a FB while continuing to its final location. But there is an obvious "hump" in the flight path between the two. And that hump leaves CB's as one of the easiest pitches for hitters to gain early identification of.

They may be identifying Bieber's curve ball early but they sure ain't hitting it.

Hand is using his curve more this year, too.

 

[jup]

They may be identifying Bieber's curve ball early but they sure ain't hitting it.

Hand is using his curve more this year, too.

CBs may be the hardest pitch to actually hit, because they have so much downward movement through the hitting zone. The amount of time they are on the swing plane (mostly horizontal) is very small given their plane of movement is about 60 degrees to the horizon.

So don't be fooled by early identification and getting hit - two totally different things - even if your post was meant to be "somewhat contrarian"

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

I think both are true.

Curveballs are easier to identify because they tend to break the "tunnel" that can hide a fastball/slider/change.

Curveballs are also harder to hit.

Ideally, we'll see pitchers try and hide the curve more inside their tunnel of other pitches. Bieber throwing two different curveballs is a huge step, and one that we might see in a future generation of young pitchers.

We used to be so caught up with throwing your "best" pitch. Well, maybe the best pitch doesn't lead to the best pitcher. A guy with the best fastball and no other pitches isn't going to be able to beat major league hitters the way a guy with a better mix can. A kid with the "best" curveball might be less effective than a kid who can throw two curves that batters can't tell apart.

It's always a fascinating game of cat and mouse between pitching and hitting.

 

[Obscured By Clouds]

Makes allot of sense, I figured something technical....My Grandpa was a Chemical Engineer. He twice tried to join the Army during WWII but since he worked on airplane fuel in his state side job, they refused to let him join twice.

And to tie this in to the Indians thread, my Grandpa played baseball in college at Case, lol (Before it merged with Western Reserve)

My grandpa was an engineer at Goodyear. He wrote his thesis on the elasticity of rubber to graduate from MIT. My aunt has it, which I hope to inherit down the line, he died when I was very young and I don't have many memories of him.