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Thoughts on trading Jose Ramirez

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Barring an unexpected extension, Ramirez is gone by next offseason. I thought they might look hard to move him now, but the addition of Hernandez and Rosario suggests they want to see if their offense can do enough to keep them in the playoff race. If things look bleak at the trade deadline, he will likely go then.
 
Barring an unexpected extension, Ramirez is gone by next offseason. I thought they might look hard to move him now, but the addition of Hernandez and Rosario suggests they want to see if their offense can do enough to keep them in the playoff race. If things look bleak at the trade deadline, he will likely go then.
Sorry Cal, I will trust the reports & percentages of Bimbo's posting (5% at trade deadline) over your statement..

One aspect that everyone seems to overlook in the idea of dealing JRam is the coming roster crunch.
The idea of dealing JRam is focused on getting good talent to help the organization but every freakin proposal has JRam bringing back 3 or more players.

Now I dislike the idea of losing good talent in the Rule 5 draft but it makes little sense to trade JRam for multiple players that causes even more talent (either already in the system or part of the JRam return) to be exposed and possibly lost for $100k a pop.

This is where the CLE FO has been very good. They do a solid job of thinking multiple moves/ ripples/ impacts ahead of others (especially fans).
 
Sorry Cal, I will trust the reports & percentages of Bimbo's posting (5% at trade deadline) over your statement..

One aspect that everyone seems to overlook in the idea of dealing JRam is the coming roster crunch.
The idea of dealing JRam is focused on getting good talent to help the organization but every freakin proposal has JRam bringing back 3 or more players.

Now I dislike the idea of losing good talent in the Rule 5 draft but it makes little sense to trade JRam for multiple players that causes even more talent (either already in the system or part of the JRam return) to be exposed and possibly lost for $100k a pop.

This is where the CLE FO has been very good. They do a solid job of thinking multiple moves/ ripples/ impacts ahead of others (especially fans).
I wouldn't be so sure about that. Right now, the Indians have $0, (that's zero dollars) committed to 2022 payroll. I don't see them resigning Hernandez, E. Rosario, or Robo. Others may be given a chance this year and found wanting. (B. Bradley, Bauers, Zimmer). I see the official rebuild starting next season, or maybe by the trade deadline.
The roster crunch might not be too bad because I think a number of the kids will be given a chance in the bigs.
 
I wouldn't be so sure about that. Right now, the Indians have $0, (that's zero dollars) committed to 2022 payroll. I don't see them resigning Hernandez, E. Rosario, or Robo. Others may be given a chance this year and found wanting. (B. Bradley, Bauers, Zimmer). I see the official rebuild starting next season, or maybe by the trade deadline.
The roster crunch might not be too bad because I think a number of the kids will be given a chance in the bigs.
Maybe its a semantics issue, or maybe not, but I do not see any official rebuild with the pitching that is in place.
 
Maybe its a semantics issue, or maybe not, but I do not see any official rebuild with the pitching that is in place.
And anyone saying CLE have $0 dollars committed to 2022 is misleading.
There are options with buyout amounts on both JRam or Bebo. Either the contract option is picked up by the team or the buyout is paid. Money committed.
3 more current players are going into arbitration 3 and another handful of players (roughly 8 or 9) are in the arbitration process.

This is not a rebuild.. Its a retool on the fly...
The FO is changing guys in/ out like a pit crew during an Indy Car or NASCAR race.
The entire rotation from 2017 has been turned over already.
The bullpen has already been turned over (a couple of times in fact).
Most of the position players/ fielders have been turned over too. Only 2 remain from the 2016 World Series appearance.

Personally I think giving Bauers & Zimmer any playing time is a waste. Time to use that opportunity for others. Bradley has until maybe July, then his time is up.
 
Sorry Cal, I will trust the reports & percentages of Bimbo's posting (5% at trade deadline) over your statement..

One aspect that everyone seems to overlook in the idea of dealing JRam is the coming roster crunch.
The idea of dealing JRam is focused on getting good talent to help the organization but every freakin proposal has JRam bringing back 3 or more players.

Now I dislike the idea of losing good talent in the Rule 5 draft but it makes little sense to trade JRam for multiple players that causes even more talent (either already in the system or part of the JRam return) to be exposed and possibly lost for $100k a pop.

This is where the CLE FO has been very good. They do a solid job of thinking multiple moves/ ripples/ impacts ahead of others (especially fans).
I believe the 5% referenced is because it is highly unlikely we will be definitively out of the race at the deadline. But if we are, and the market is hot for a 3B he is a legit candidate to be moved.
 
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Updates on Fandom's idea of a Jose Ramirez trade:

Indians get: Jesus Luzardo (A's) and JD Davis (Mets)
Indians give up: Jose Ramirez and Amed Rosario..
-Reasonable deal if the Indians are seeing their starting pitching staff waivering.. otherwise this is a "not now" kind of deal.. If additional quality prospects were added... then yes.

Indians get: JJ Bleday, Edward Cabrera and Monte Harrison (Miami)
Indians give up: Jose Ramirez
-Really love Bleday's bat and game..perhaps as good as almost any OF'er in the minor leagues. Cabrera has a big arm and is near ML ready.. Harrison is tool shed.. if he could only make more contact.. I like this deal.. for many reasons..

Indians get: Harrison Bader, Tommy Edman Matt Liberatore and Ivan Herrera
Indians give up: Jose Ramirez
-Assumption here is the Redbirds want to move Jose Ramirez to 2B for the 2021 and 2022 season.... while having an "insurance policy" if Arenado decides to opt out (doubtful).. This deal adds two versatile players immediately and offers the exact pitching type the CLEFO covets. Herrera has a strong record of being a superb hitter for a catcher.. many believe his defensive skills behind the plate play to an upper half of MLB C or better.. Another deal that I like..

Thoughts?..
 
And anyone saying CLE have $0 dollars committed to 2022 is misleading.
There are options with buyout amounts on both JRam or Bebo. Either the contract option is picked up by the team or the buyout is paid. Money committed.
3 more current players are going into arbitration 3 and another handful of players (roughly 8 or 9) are in the arbitration process.

This is not a rebuild.. Its a retool on the fly...
The FO is changing guys in/ out like a pit crew during an Indy Car or NASCAR race.
The entire rotation from 2017 has been turned over already.
The bullpen has already been turned over (a couple of times in fact).
Most of the position players/ fielders have been turned over too. Only 2 remain from the 2016 World Series appearance.

Personally I think giving Bauers & Zimmer any playing time is a waste. Time to use that opportunity for others. Bradley has until maybe July, then his time is up.
You might be right Mad, but Bauers was 23 in 2019 and 25 now. I'd say that buys him a little more leash than the 28 yr old Zimmer, but it's still a short one.

In my utopia we would just trade for Mancini or someone like him, and forget about the trial and error guys. I'd be fine with Bauers or Bradley "finding themselves" in another organization. Same goes for Mercado.
 
Updates on Fandom's idea of a Jose Ramirez trade:

Indians get: Jesus Luzardo (A's) and JD Davis (Mets)
Indians give up: Jose Ramirez and Amed Rosario..
-Reasonable deal if the Indians are seeing their starting pitching staff waivering.. otherwise this is a "not now" kind of deal.. If additional quality prospects were added... then yes.

Indians get: JJ Bleday, Edward Cabrera and Monte Harrison (Miami)
Indians give up: Jose Ramirez
-Really love Bleday's bat and game..perhaps as good as almost any OF'er in the minor leagues. Cabrera has a big arm and is near ML ready.. Harrison is tool shed.. if he could only make more contact.. I like this deal.. for many reasons..

Indians get: Harrison Bader, Tommy Edman Matt Liberatore and Ivan Herrera
Indians give up: Jose Ramirez
-Assumption here is the Redbirds want to move Jose Ramirez to 2B for the 2021 and 2022 season.... while having an "insurance policy" if Arenado decides to opt out (doubtful).. This deal adds two versatile players immediately and offers the exact pitching type the CLEFO covets. Herrera has a strong record of being a superb hitter for a catcher.. many believe his defensive skills behind the plate play to an upper half of MLB C or better.. Another deal that I like..

Thoughts?..
No on trade 1 - makes no sense for the Indians. It adds to our strength and weakens greatly our team weakness. No on trade 3 - Bader is another no hit outfielder. Trade 2 would be a decent trade if you want to enter a rebuild for the next two years at least. Bleday not likely to make the majors until 2022 with last year's lost year in the minors so he would likely be ready to be a major piece until 2023. So my answer here is also no.

The Indians are looking at a 40 man roster crunch. Adding more to that problem makes more of a crunch. We already see how many people are upset with the Indians losing Santander to the Orioles. Then again, I am not in the trade Ramirez camp unless the trade is so overwhelming. These three trades are not overwhelming in my opinion.

Those are my thoughts that you asked for.
 
Bump, now 36 of 188 total comments.
Thanks! You had me counting my f'n posts!

The idea of trading Ramirez now has severely faded with the additions of Hernandez and E. Rosario, but I don't they should be done either. While this lineup is better I think another bat is needed unless one of Bauers, Bradley, Naylor surprise.
 
Thanks! You had me counting my f'n posts!

The idea of trading Ramirez now has severely faded with the additions of Hernandez and E. Rosario, but I don't they should be done either. While this lineup is better I think another bat is needed unless one of Bauers, Bradley, Naylor surprise.
Not your posts, CDAV45... or at least I did not count yours.
 
I find the whole "trade Ramirez while he has three years left!" advocacy bewildering.

As if we have some sort of wasting asset that we just HAVE to move.

No we don't. We don't have to trade him at all. Just like we didn't HAVE to trade Corey Kluber or Francisco Lindor. Or Trevor Bauer or Mike Clevinger.

The Tribe doesn't have to trade anyone just because the team's loss of contractual control is on the horizon. That's a myth. The whole "trade him for something before we lose him!" mantra is so tiring. And so wrong.

Why even go to the trouble of drafting, signing, or developing excellent players--players who you only control for six or seven years at the major league level--if you only intend to have them for a portion of that time? It's ridiculous, really. You have an MVP quality player for three more years, and some of you feel an actual URGENCY to move him. What the hell? Why even have a team?

You consider trading a player of Ramirez's stature (or Lindor or Kluber or Clevenger) ONLY if one or more of the following conditions apply, without any ambiguity:

1. The team is completely non-competitive for a playoff spot.
2. The player is making more than he is worth, either because he just is, or because you have reasonable alternatives who can provide a substantial portion of that player's expected production for a fraction of the cost and reallocating resources would be immediately beneficial.
3. You have reason to believe the player is at a major risk for decline, either because of age or potential injury.
4. You are COMPLETELY and UTTERLY overwhelmed by an offer by another team for that player's services. Not an even trade, but one where you'd be nuts not to make that deal.

That's it. There's no other reason to make a trade. None whatsoever. And right now, there is no reasonable reason to trade Ramirez. We are competitive, he's easily worth what he's being paid, he's durable, it's reasonable to expect he'll continue to be productive, and there's no reason to believe any team is going to wildly overpay for him.

I read a lot here and elsewhere the moans and groans that we "traded Lindor and Kluber a year too late" and we shouldn't make the same mistake with Ramirez. That's nonsense. Unless you can tell me you foresaw Kluber's injury in early 2019 or the advent of Covid in the spring of 2020. Both players were anticipated to be part of competitive, contending teams. You don't trade guys like that when you expect to be good. I don't care if you play guys like that out right to the end of their contracts; as long as you are contending and you have reason to believe those players will be productive in line with their pay, you keep them and play it out. I'll never, ever criticize an organization for doing that. I will, however, be furious if we trade Ramirez just because of some perception that the clock is ticking on player control. That's just stupid.

No one could predict Covid or that Lindor would extend the offensive decline he started in 2019. It was his performance in 2020 that made it absolutely clear that he wouldn't be anywhere near worth the $22.3m he would be paid in 2020. That severely limited what he could be dealt for this winter, much like Kluber's health history limited offers the team received in the winters of 2018 and 2019. That's not a function of "waiting too long." It was simply a matter of circumstances beyond the team's control. You only settle for what you can get when forced to...there was no way to predict that all of a sudden, Lindor and Kluber would be making so much more than they were worth that neither we nor anyone else would want them for much of anything at all in return.

I'm willing to gamble that Ramirez will be worth keeping on the team for the next three years because I expect the Tribe--and Jose--to be quite good throughout that time. If the dynamic changes, than we can adjust. But I will never condemn a team for keeping good players when the team is good, otherwise, what's the point?
 
I find the whole "trade Ramirez while he has three years left!" advocacy bewildering.

As if we have some sort of wasting asset that we just HAVE to move.

No we don't. We don't have to trade him at all. Just like we didn't HAVE to trade Corey Kluber or Francisco Lindor. Or Trevor Bauer or Mike Clevinger.

The Tribe doesn't have to trade anyone just because the team's loss of contractual control is on the horizon. That's a myth. The whole "trade him for something before we lose him!" mantra is so tiring. And so wrong.

Why even go to the trouble of drafting, signing, or developing excellent players--players who you only control for six or seven years at the major league level--if you only intend to have them for a portion of that time? It's ridiculous, really. You have an MVP quality player for three more years, and some of you feel an actual URGENCY to move him. What the hell? Why even have a team?

You consider trading a player of Ramirez's stature (or Lindor or Kluber or Clevenger) ONLY if one or more of the following conditions apply, without any ambiguity:

1. The team is completely non-competitive for a playoff spot.
2. The player is making more than he is worth, either because he just is, or because you have reasonable alternatives who can provide a substantial portion of that player's expected production for a fraction of the cost and reallocating resources would be immediately beneficial.
3. You have reason to believe the player is at a major risk for decline, either because of age or potential injury.
4. You are COMPLETELY and UTTERLY overwhelmed by an offer by another team for that player's services. Not an even trade, but one where you'd be nuts not to make that deal.

That's it. There's no other reason to make a trade. None whatsoever. And right now, there is no reasonable reason to trade Ramirez. We are competitive, he's easily worth what he's being paid, he's durable, it's reasonable to expect he'll continue to be productive, and there's no reason to believe any team is going to wildly overpay for him.

I read a lot here and elsewhere the moans and groans that we "traded Lindor and Kluber a year too late" and we shouldn't make the same mistake with Ramirez. That's nonsense. Unless you can tell me you foresaw Kluber's injury in early 2019 or the advent of Covid in the spring of 2020. Both players were anticipated to be part of competitive, contending teams. You don't trade guys like that when you expect to be good. I don't care if you play guys like that out right to the end of their contracts; as long as you are contending and you have reason to believe those players will be productive in line with their pay, you keep them and play it out. I'll never, ever criticize an organization for doing that. I will, however, be furious if we trade Ramirez just because of some perception that the clock is ticking on player control. That's just stupid.

No one could predict Covid or that Lindor would extend the offensive decline he started in 2019. It was his performance in 2020 that made it absolutely clear that he wouldn't be anywhere near worth the $22.3m he would be paid in 2020. That severely limited what he could be dealt for this winter, much like Kluber's health history limited offers the team received in the winters of 2018 and 2019. That's not a function of "waiting too long." It was simply a matter of circumstances beyond the team's control. You only settle for what you can get when forced to...there was no way to predict that all of a sudden, Lindor and Kluber would be making so much more than they were worth that neither we nor anyone else would want them for much of anything at all in return.

I'm willing to gamble that Ramirez will be worth keeping on the team for the next three years because I expect the Tribe--and Jose--to be quite good throughout that time. If the dynamic changes, than we can adjust. But I will never condemn a team for keeping good players when the team is good, otherwise, what's the point?
What is so bewildering? The talk has died down because they've signed Hernandez and Rosario. Prior to that, this team didn't have a chance to win shit in many's eyes. Even now, there are many questions that need answers or we'll be looking up at Minnesota and Chicago at the end of the season.

What do you even mean when you say "why go through the trouble of drafting, signing, or developing excellent players"? What about trading for excellent players? They've been pretty good at that too wouldn't you say? For this team to have sustained success it will need a core group of young, inexpensive players realizing their potential synchronously. At the same time, payroll will always be of concern, so those who are approaching FA and getting expensive are likely to get traded. It would be nothing short of stupid to repeat the same mistake that was made by holding onto Lindor and Kluber a year too long. Not trading Lindor the year before not only lessened the return for him, but it forced the organization to trade Carrasco for little to nothing as well. Holding onto Kluber made us watch his value almost completely diminish due to an unfortunate injury. These are risks that apply to all, not just individual players. Ideally, you'd want to surround a player like Ramirez with young, inexpensive studs and ride him to a division title and through the post season. I'm not convinced we have that type of team at the moment, but I haven't given up hope either. If it is determined that the team is unlikely to find success, then why hold onto such a valuable asset until the greatest portion of that value has deteriorated?

We haven't won the AL Central since 2018 and we haven't made it out of the 1st round/WC of playoffs since 2016. We haven't won a playoff game since 2017. We were lucky enough to be in a terrible division up until last season, but that ride is over my friend. We won't be going 15-1 against the Tigers again. Any titles will have to be won now and for the next few years. Thing is, this organization is ran well enough to do so even with a severely limited budget, but it will have to make difficult, timely decisions. There isn't enough room for error.

Ramirez's value right now is at its pinnacle. Do you think he will continue to put up the numbers he did in 2020? Clearly he's capable, but he's also capable of regressing like he did in 2019. I've said from the beginning that I'd be on board with extending him, but what are the actual chances of doing so? I've also said from the beginning if trading him is inevitable and his value is such that an incredible return would be offered then by all means do the deal. The conversations have been mostly around the latter idea. Is there a team that could make an offer that none of us would refuse. I believe there is, but I also believe that it is very unlikely to happen.
 

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