Thoughts on trading Jose Ramirez

[BMAN]

@BMAN

The argument being made is clarified as:

If you believe the loss of Hand, Lindor, Carrasco, Cimber, Clevinger, Allen, Naquin, & Santana (among others) while replacing them with the Rosario boys, Eddie & Amed, Naylor, Quantrill and Hedges makes the club more competitive with the CWSox and Twins.. then retaining Jose Ramirez until he leaves as a free agent is the right choice..

If you can smell the coffee and have your eyes open.. you might have a different opinion.. Far be it from anyone to disagree, though.. or suggest a potential resolution of the situation by acquiring players that WILL permit the club to be more competitive.. If that is the case, then trading Jose Ramirez would make sense..

Both approaches retain the services of the quality pitching staff currently in place and those that are coming in the minor league system....

Both arguments have merit.. neither is absolutely right..

I really get the argument, I do. I’m not advocating going out signing shitty free agents. I just don’t want to trade a yearly MVP candidate on an extremely team friendly deal with three years go still. Why not try to build around him and market him properly?

 

[Gson]

I really get the argument, I do. I’m not advocating going out signing shitty free agents. I just don’t want to trade a yearly MVP candidate on an extremely team friendly deal with three years go still. Why not try to build around him and market him properly?

Agree with this.. no one wants to lose their best player.. even when he's already been traded..

 

[Derek]

Agree with this.. no one wants to lose their best player.. even when he's already been traded..

Lindor wasn't even close to the team's best player.

The Sox look particularly tough this year, but I still expect our squad to compete for the division crown.

Trading Ramirez would be a monumental mistake, in my opinion.

 

[Gson]

Ah.. and yet another Jose Ramirez trade has been posted.. this time by Eagles11..

-Blue Jays get: Cal Quantrill and Jose Ramirez
-Indians get: Alek Manoah, Miguel Hiraldo, Lourdes Gurriel Jr. and Jordan Groshans..

I've suggested that the Jays keep Manoah and the Indians keep Quantrill in this deal but return the "over pay" value by including Kloffenstein to the Indians...

Lourdes Gurriel had a break out season in 2020.. it completes his transition from 2B to the OF and will provide offensive production approaching 80 to 90 % of what Jose Ramirez brought. The three guys coming back with Lourdes would all be ready for ML action as late season call ups in 2021 (cup of coffee type promotions).. with more realistic ETA's of 2022, while our current pitching staff including Bieber, Plesac, Civale, McKenzie, Allen, McStix, et al.. are still well within the current competitive window.

Adding Jordan Groshans would be HUGE..

Losing Brad Zimmer or his ilk because of some future 40 man roster crunch.. is what it is..

This would be a good deal/franchise changing kind of deal.. and would screw the yankees just a little bit more than they're already screwed.. I like that..

No rest for the wicked...

 

[CDAV45]

Aha!

The typical back and forth continues.

On one side are those that see JRam as a key piece...maybe THE key piece...of a winning baseball team for the next three years...which IMO is the reason to have a team in the first place. They (we) focus on the present, with a cursory interest in the future.

On the other side, those that see JRam as the key to acquiring shiny new youngsters. They are always looking to the future, with only cursory interest in the present.

One thing that should be noticed by every Tribe poster on this forum is that our future is already bright. We have prospects stacked up all the way back to A ball. So many that that the org won't be able to fit them on the roster, let alone play them all.

The future is now AND ahead.

The latter group looks back in hindsight and says with certainty that we traded Kluber and Frankie too late, although NOBODY knows what we got for either of them yet. We only know the names.

Personally, I like the present situation. We have the now and we have the future. We have the resources to acquire even more for the now, without bankrupting the future.

There are so many variables to think about when discussing the future of JRam with the Tribe. We don't know how this season will turn out. We don't know how much of a season there will be. We don't know if there will be a season next year.

We don't even know much of anything about Jose. How many know anything about his personal life? How many have ever read an in depth article on him or heard him do an extended interview with him. His interviews consist of the same three words, the only words I've ever heard him say in English (that is NOT a knock)...'Home run pitch' . He is the most anonymous elite player in baseball, maybe in all pro sports.

He doesn't self promote nor do major endorsements.

He will be 30 at the end of his present contract, including options. Even though he has been a better player than anybody not named Trout or Betts, he will never be paid nearly as much as most of the better players in the league. Maybe he wants to extend. Maybe he doesn't. Maybe he just doesn't care.

Jose recently changed agencies, going with Republik Sports. Rafa Nieves is the owner, and was with Wasserman. He has always represented Jose and specializes in Latin players. Nieves long track record as an agent is that he negotiates extensions for his clients, rather than testing free agency.

There is no realistic trade of Jose that could make us a better team now. There is no realistic trade next year that could make us a better team in 2022. There is no realistic trade in 2023 that could make us a better team then.

And right now we don't need any more prospects, esp when we don't even know what we have right now. We already have a boat load of prospects on this team to look at.

But perhaps both sides are overlooking a very real possibility...an extension.

Pretty much all speculation slanted to suit your agenda. "There is no realistic trade of Jose that could make us a better team now" is pure speculation. In fact, it's as speculative as saying "trading Ramirez would put us over the top". We just don't know without knowing the return and how that return performs. The problem here isn't Jose Ramirez or what to do with him. It's what are they going to put around him, because it will take much more than him having a MVP caliber season for this team to win the division let alone any playoff games. Simply adding Rosario is not enough. Now we have to know if whoever is playing SS, 1B, CF, C, and RF can contribute enough for this team to win. If they cannot then perhaps Ramirez's value to this organization is the players that can be returned. Maybe the current question marks are answered in house and this team runs away with it. Maybe they all continue to struggle as they already have and we finish 3rd or 4th in the division. Maybe they use some of their prospect capital to add to this team. You just don't fucking know because nobody does.

How I feel about the Kluber and Lindor trades was not hindsight at all and frankly I'm sick of folks saying it. In fact, many on the old board felt the same so I'm no trail blazer either. Because they waited until the last possible moment to trade either, the returns were significantly less. In the Lindor trade, they had to send an extremely valuable SP to get anything in return. Imagine if the trade with the Mets was only Lindor and they traded Carrasco and his team friendly deal independently. This isn't rocket science, it's common sense.

How do you know we don't need anymore prospects? Maybe we do? Maybe we need better prospects? Why do you even think that the return will be prospects alone? There really isn't an argument because we don't even know what or who we're arguing about.

I can/will only speak for myself, but I've stated several times that trading Ramirez is mostly dependent on the ability/inability to extend him. I think everyone else feels the same. I don't recall a single post stating that the Indians should not extend Ramirez and trade him instead. Can you give us an example?

Everybody here loves Jose Ramirez so promoting him is pointless. You expecting someone to counter with "he's a piece of shit"?

 

[Urban]

In the past 4 seasons: he's won 3 silver sluggers, been an All Star 3 times*, and placed in the Top 3 of the AL MVP 3 times. He's in the prime of his career making $35m in his age 28, 29, and 30 seasons

If you trade him, it needs to be for a package that surpasses what the White Sox got in return for Chris Sale

*Would've been in 2020 had there been a game

 

[Gson]

Pretty much all speculation slanted to suit your agenda. "There is no realistic trade of Jose that could make us a better team now" is pure speculation. In fact, it's as speculative as saying "trading Ramirez would put us over the top". We just don't know without knowing the return and how that return performs. The problem here isn't Jose Ramirez or what to do with him. It's what are they going to put around him, because it will take much more than him having a MVP caliber season for this team to win the division let alone any playoff games. Simply adding Rosario is not enough. Now we have to know if whoever is playing SS, 1B, CF, C, and RF can contribute enough for this team to win. If they cannot then perhaps Ramirez's value to this organization is the players that can be returned. Maybe the current question marks are answered in house and this team runs away with it. Maybe they all continue to struggle as they already have and we finish 3rd or 4th in the division. Maybe they use some of their prospect capital to add to this team. You just don't fucking know because nobody does.

How I feel about the Kluber and Lindor trades was not hindsight at all and frankly I'm sick of folks saying it. In fact, many on the old board felt the same so I'm no trail blazer either. Because they waited until the last possible moment to trade either, the returns were significantly less. In the Lindor trade, they had to send an extremely valuable SP to get anything in return. Imagine if the trade with the Mets was only Lindor and they traded Carrasco and his team friendly deal independently. This isn't rocket science, it's common sense.

How do you know we don't need anymore prospects? Maybe we do? Maybe we need better prospects? Why do you even think that the return will be prospects alone? There really isn't an argument because we don't even know what or who we're arguing about.

I can/will only speak for myself, but I've stated several times that trading Ramirez is mostly dependent on the ability/inability to extend him. I think everyone else feels the same. I don't recall a single post stating that the Indians should not extend Ramirez and trade him instead. Can you give us an example?

Everybody here loves Jose Ramirez so promoting him is pointless. You expecting someone to counter with "he's a piece of shit"?

Agree with all this..

Adding to the comment about prospects.. the answer to the more or better? is both.. more and better..

 

[CDAV45]

In the past 4 seasons: he's won 3 silver sluggers, been an All Star 3 times*, and placed in the Top 3 of the AL MVP 3 times. He's in the prime of his career making $35m in his age 28, 29, and 30 seasons

If you trade him, it needs to be for a package that surpasses what the White Sox got in return for Chris Sale

*Would've been in 2020 had there been a game

Agreed! The question is would trading him be the equivalent of throwing in the towel? My argument is if the return is as it should be then that isn't a foregone conclusion, and if the return isn't as it should be then he shouldn't be traded. I want this team to win and become more competitive than it has been. I don't go to the ballpark or watch the games at home to see any individual player.

 

[CDAV45]

Lindor wasn't even close to the team's best player.

The Sox look particularly tough this year, but I still expect our squad to compete for the division crown.

Trading Ramirez would be a monumental mistake, in my opinion.

Derek, your opinion has my respect. At the same time someone could counter with "not trading Ramirez while his value is so high and while this team has needs would be a monumental mistake". Thing is neither is right or wrong in the present.

All this trade Ramirez talk would disappear if the rest of the lineup was further solidified. I'm at the point where I want them to keep him for now and put another big bat in the lineup. As I've stated before, all of SS, CF, RF, C, and 1B are big question marks offensively. Just filling one of them with a steady presence would go a long way.

 

[Derek]

Derek, your opinion has my respect. At the same time someone could counter with "not trading Ramirez while his value is so high and while this team has needs would be a monumental mistake". Thing is neither is right or wrong in the present.

All this trade Ramirez talk would disappear if the rest of the lineup was further solidified. I'm at the point where I want them to keep him for now and put another big bat in the lineup. As I've stated before, all of SS, CF, RF, C, and 1B are big question marks offensively. Just filling one of them with a steady presence would go a long way.

Well, obviously I believe what I’m saying is right or else I wouldn’t be saying it

We’re just here stating opinions (which I even put in my post).

 

[Gson]

A steve adams (MLBTr) chat...

-Reds ss 3:06 -Who starts opening day?

-Steve Adams 3:07 -I don't know the answer to this, but when the best-case scenario is to hope they trade for Amed Rosario so they don't have to give Dee Strange-Gordon the nod, that's a really rough situation. Brutal offseason for Reds fans. They should be livid with the team.

Sometimes.. the best trade is the one not made..?.. maybe not in this case.. no discussion on what the return is.. perhaps we won't have to worry about it...

 

[hockeyjohn]

Ah.. and yet another Jose Ramirez trade has been posted.. this time by Eagles11..

-Blue Jays get: Cal Quantrill and Jose Ramirez
-Indians get: Alek Manoah, Miguel Hiraldo, Lourdes Gurriel Jr. and Jordan Groshans..

I've suggested that the Jays keep Manoah and the Indians keep Quantrill in this deal but return the "over pay" value by including Kloffenstein to the Indians...

Lourdes Gurriel had a break out season in 2020.. it completes his transition from 2B to the OF and will provide offensive production approaching 80 to 90 % of what Jose Ramirez brought. The three guys coming back with Lourdes would all be ready for ML action as late season call ups in 2021 (cup of coffee type promotions).. with more realistic ETA's of 2022, while our current pitching staff including Bieber, Plesac, Civale, McKenzie, Allen, McStix, et al.. are still well within the current competitive window.

Adding Jordan Groshans would be HUGE..

Losing Brad Zimmer or his ilk because of some future 40 man roster crunch.. is what it is..

This would be a good deal/franchise changing kind of deal.. and would screw the yankees just a little bit more than they're already screwed.. I like that..

No rest for the wicked...

Again with another trade that is NOT AN OVERPAY. Another trade that would waste the next 2 seasons of our starting pitching. Groshans and Hiraldo have not played higher than low A in 2019. There are no guarantees that they are ready by late 2021 or even the start of 2022.

Also, I checked 4 Top 100 prospect lists for 2021. Here they are for Groshans and our 3B prospect Nolan Jones

Prospect 1500 - Nolan Jones 34 Groshans 40
MLB.com - Nolan Jones 36 Groshans 46
Fangraphs - Nolan Jones 52 Groshans 77
Kiley McDaniel (ESPN) - Nolan Jones 33 and Groshans 47

I am not willing to give up on 2021 or likely 2022 unless the trade is a huge overpay. Every trade proposal that you bring up is not close to that standard. I guess for you the grass is always greener on the other side.

 

[BMAN]

Agree with this.. no one wants to lose their best player.. even when he's already been traded..

You know who I was talking about and it was very debatable who was better the last couple years, Jose or Lindor. I think I’m just going to sit this thread out though.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

So today Tito said he was going to keep Nolan Jones at 3B for now in spring training. Read into that what you will.

 

[Gson]

So today Tito said he was going to keep Nolan Jones at 3B for now in spring training. Read into that what you will.

it's not for lack of effort.. it's for lack of foot speed & instincts in the OF..

his best spot is where he is.. corner IF..

as far as what else?.. this is the place to make that suggestion..

TBH... it wouldn't surprise me to see more than just him being given reps at that spot.. you can't be too prepared.. we'll see..