Thoughts on trading Jose Ramirez

[WhoAzcue]

Another "we mustn't wait a second to trade Ramirez!" post.

Three years to go with a team bursting at the seams with potential and an organization full of young guys we can't protect now.

But then, you think we're finishing behind the Royals, so you think we satisfy rule #1. So I get it.

You're wrong, but I get it. Trade guys who make you good for bunch of guys you hope will make you good.

That's not the Tribe way, thank goodness. You just think it ought to be I guess. When it comes to the Cleveland Indians, you have to be willing to trade a guy one year too late. If the team is good and the player is good, you can't be trying to finesse things...you have the opportunity, you grab it.

Lindor and Kluber were not traded too late. That's only a judgment made in retrospect. You can never know what was offered or what was turned down. We can only know what happened to the players and the team subsequently. I know, I know, I know...you just KNEW that Kluber's skills were gone and that he'd get hurt again, that Lindor was going to crater with the bat that the Tribe would lose again in the postseason or just miss again. I love seers.

And please, no reference to postseason failures. Those are on the players themselves. You get that far, journey right to the precipice, it's on players at that point, a between-the-lines thing, not whether or not someone was traded one year too early or too late.

 

[Gson]

What is so bewildering? The talk has died down because they've signed Hernandez and Rosario. Prior to that, this team didn't have a chance to win shit in many's eyes. Even now, there are many questions that need answers or we'll be looking up at Minnesota and Chicago at the end of the season.

What do you even mean when you say "why go through the trouble of drafting, signing, or developing excellent players"? What about trading for excellent players? They've been pretty good at that too wouldn't you say? For this team to have sustained success it will need a core group of young, inexpensive players realizing their potential synchronously. At the same time, payroll will always be of concern, so those who are approaching FA and getting expensive are likely to get traded. It would be nothing short of stupid to repeat the same mistake that was made by holding onto Lindor and Kluber a year too long. Not trading Lindor the year before not only lessened the return for him, but it forced the organization to trade Carrasco for little to nothing as well. Holding onto Kluber made us watch his value almost completely diminish due to an unfortunate injury. These are risks that apply to all, not just individual players. Ideally, you'd want to surround a player like Ramirez with young, inexpensive studs and ride him to a division title and through the post season. I'm not convinced we have that type of team at the moment, but I haven't given up hope either. If it is determined that the team is unlikely to find success, then why hold onto such a valuable asset until the greatest portion of that value has deteriorated?

We haven't won the AL Central since 2018 and we haven't made it out of the 1st round/WC of playoffs since 2016. We haven't won a playoff game since 2017. We were lucky enough to be in a terrible division up until last season, but that ride is over my friend. We won't be going 15-1 against the Tigers again. Any titles will have to be won now and for the next few years. Thing is, this organization is ran well enough to do so even with a severely limited budget, but it will have to make difficult, timely decisions. There isn't enough room for error.

Ramirez's value right now is at its pinnacle. Do you think he will continue to put up the numbers he did in 2020? Clearly he's capable, but he's also capable of regressing like he did in 2019. I've said from the beginning that I'd be on board with extending him, but what are the actual chances of doing so? I've also said from the beginning if trading him is inevitable and his value is such that an incredible return would be offered then by all means do the deal. The conversations have been mostly around the latter idea. Is there a team that could make an offer that none of us would refuse. I believe there is, but I also believe that it is very unlikely to happen.

now... or until the trading deadline... at the earliest..

Agree with all of this..

 

[Alabuckeye]

There was a fair sized minority who felt trading Kluber after 2018 was the right thing to do. I was in that group, thinking that there were signs that the wear and tear on him was taking its toll. I wouldn't consider trading him in the off season between 18 and 19 was a year early. I would consider it to be right on time. But, that's water under the bridge at this point and we will see if he has anything left in the tank for the Yankees.

 

[CDAV45]

Another "we mustn't wait a second to trade Ramirez!" post.

Three years to go with a team bursting at the seams with potential and an organization full of young guys we can't protect now.

But then, you think we're finishing behind the Royals, so you think we satisfy rule #1. So I get it.

You're wrong, but I get it. Trade guys who make you good for bunch of guys you hope will make you good.

That's not the Tribe way, thank goodness. You just think it ought to be I guess. When it comes to the Cleveland Indians, you have to be willing to trade a guy one year too late. If the team is good and the player is good, you can't be trying to finesse things...you have the opportunity, you grab it.

Lindor and Kluber were not traded too late. That's only a judgment made in retrospect. You can never know what was offered or what was turned down. We can only know what happened to the players and the team subsequently. I know, I know, I know...you just KNEW that Kluber's skills were gone and that he'd get hurt again, that Lindor was going to crater with the bat that the Tribe would lose again in the postseason or just miss again. I love seers.

And please, no reference to postseason failures. Those are on the players themselves. You get that far, journey right to the precipice, it's on players at that point, a between-the-lines thing, not whether or not someone was traded one year too early or too late.

Why do choose to make shit up when folks can just go back a read what was said?

I've never once said "we mustn't wait a second to trade Ramirez". Nice theatrics though.

I never said I think we'll finish behind the Royals either, but hey, it's your BS story.

It's not the "Tribe way"? Do you want a list of who they've traded?

Yes, Lindor and Kluber were traded too late and that isn't stated in retrospect. You can go to the old board and look at what I said and when I said it.

"I just KNEW that Kluber's skills were gone and that he'd get hurt again and that Lindor was going to crater with the bat". I'll reply to dumbass statement as well. It had nothing to do with Kluber's skill and everything to do with knowing they weren't going to be able to resign and the value that he had. Yes there is always the risk of underperformance or injury for any player. Lindor didn't crater. He had a bad 60 game, f'd up season, and he's going to get paid as if he's one of the best SS in the game. You know why? Because he is, so WTF are you even talking about.

You're damn right it's on the players themselves and its proven that this team was lacking once it reached the playoffs. Sure it could beat the shit out of the Detroits and KC's and some marginal teams, but when it came to the better teams in the league then they didn't win a single fuckin' postseason game since 2017. If you can't see the correlation then that's on you.

To save you the trouble of looking back I'll just copy and paste what I said.
"Trading him is probably inevitable, but in order for me to even consider moving him now 2 things need to be fairly certain. 1) He cannot be extended and 2) The offer is simply too good to refuse."

 

[Gson]

Why do choose to make shit up when folks can just go back a read what was said?

I've never once said "we mustn't wait a second to trade Ramirez". Nice theatrics though.

I never said I think we'll finish behind the Royals either, but hey, it's your BS story.

It's not the "Tribe way"? Do you want a list of who they've traded?

Yes, Lindor and Kluber were traded too late and that isn't stated in retrospect. You can go to the old board and look at what I said and when I said it.

"I just KNEW that Kluber's skills were gone and that he'd get hurt again and that Lindor was going to crater with the bat". I'll reply to dumbass statement as well. It had nothing to do with Kluber's skill and everything to do with knowing they weren't going to be able to resign and the value that he had. Yes there is always the risk of underperformance or injury for any player. Lindor didn't crater. He had a bad 60 game, f'd up season, and he's going to get paid as if he's one of the best SS in the game. You know why? Because he is, so WTF are you even talking about.

You're damn right it's on the players themselves and its proven that this team was lacking once it reached the playoffs. Sure it could beat the shit out of the Detroits and KC's and some marginal teams, but when it came to the better teams in the league then they didn't win a single fuckin' postseason game since 2017. If you can't see the correlation then that's on you.

To save you the trouble of looking back I'll just copy and paste what I said.
"Trading him is probably inevitable, but in order for me to even consider moving him now 2 things need to be fairly certain. 1) He cannot be extended and 2) The offer is simply too good to refuse."

Commenting just on the enlarged font portion of you comment..

1. Assume this to be correct.. I think you believe ( no certainty ) extending Jose Ramirez at this point for the dollar$ it's going to take is not just unlikely.. that is.. it cannot and will not happen..

2. the offer.. There have been any number of deals presented.. none have been consumated.. The assumption is that any offers received have been refused.. so far.. There was a deal cobbled together that might meet the definition or requirement.. The Indians give up Jose Ramirez and one of Logan S. Allen or Joey Cantillo (clearing two forty man slots) and they receive Shane McClanahan LHRP, Austin Meadows OF, Austin Hendrick OF, Tyler Stephenson C and Jonathan India 3B. All five need 40 man slots.

Dumping Bradley Zimmer, Jake Bauers and Beau Taylor (resign to a MiLB contract after clearing waivers would be attempted) would clear the three additional spots on the 40 man roster...

Does this "offer" work as a too good to pass up deal?..

 

[WhoAzcue]

To save you the trouble of looking back I'll just copy and paste what I said.
"Trading him is probably inevitable, but in order for me to even consider moving him now 2 things need to be fairly certain. 1) He cannot be extended and 2) The offer is simply too good to refuse."

Trading him is not inevitable. As long as the Tribe is competitive and he remains productive and healthy, he will NOT be dealt. An extension is not relevant to the discussion. (I personally do not believe he would entertain one regardless, and I doubt the Indians would either given the cost.)

The situations of Lindor and Kluber were never analogous to Ramirez's circumstances, although they argue for the proposition that the team will not trade anyone until forced to by circumstances. The fact that the team--in some eyes-- traded Lindor and Kluber one year too late only demonstrates the willingness of the team's willingness to ride players out in order to win. I find it ironic that some would contest that reality, given all the angst around here that we're never really trying.

Admit it: you were stunned by the Rosario/Hernandez signings, even though it was clear from the tenders of Hedges and Wittgren that the team was not in burn-it-to-the-ground mode. Just the pitching alone should have told you we weren't going to waste a rotation like that by dealing our best everyday player.

And please don't say you didn't feel we were going to have trouble holding off Kansas City. You've made it clear that you don't think much of this team, including using the postseason (of all things!) as a marker of the team's quality. Never mind the team was good enough to take a 3-1 lead in 2016 and a 2-0 lead in 2017, then get hosed by a cheating Houston team in 2018, then encounter all sorts of pitching disasters in 2019 but STILL erase a 13 game deficit before just falling short of the playoffs, then going toe-to-toe with the Yankees in 2020, getting over on Aroldis Chapman (again) only to have the team's illustrious closer blow it in the end. Oh yeah, all those failures are on the front office for not doing more and more and more and more. No one knows what is enough, but you seem to. The truth is, these seasons were determined by whether our players--especially star players--got it done and in all cases they just came up short. It had nothing to do with anything else. The postseason is a crapshoot, but you insist on making it the measuring stick in this discussion for whatever reason. It is the shallow argument by shallow fans: "Oh yeah, well, we've won nuthin' since 1948! Nuthin'!"

Never mind that the Cleveland Indians have the 3rd highest winning percentage all time in the American League behind only NY and BOS, and the current ownership regime has only extended our place in the rankings since taking over, we STILL have it thrown in our faces by our own fans that we are failures because of the postseason results. How patently absurd.

As long as Jose Ramirez is not an impediment to this team continuing to be a winner, he will be the Tribe's thirdbaseman. Period.

 

[Gson]

duplicate

 

[hockeyjohn]

Commenting just on the enlarged font portion of you comment..

1. Assume this to be correct.. I think you believe ( no certainty ) extending Jose Ramirez at this point for the dollar$ it's going to take is not just unlikely.. that is.. it cannot and will not happen..

2. the offer.. There have been any number of deals presented.. none have been consumated.. The assumption is that any offers received have been refused.. so far.. There was a deal cobbled together that might meet the definition or requirement.. The Indians give up Jose Ramirez and one of Logan S. Allen or Joey Cantillo (clearing two forty man slots) and they receive Shane McClanahan LHRP, Austin Meadows OF, Austin Hendrick OF, Tyler Stephenson C and Jonathan India 3B. All five need 40 man slots.

Dumping Bradley Zimmer, Jake Bauers and Beau Taylor (resign to a MiLB contract after clearing waivers would be attempted) would clear the three additional spots on the 40 man roster...

Does this "offer" work as a too good to pass up deal?..

No, it is not enough of an overpay to trade Jose Ramirez. Using Baseball Trade Values rankings Ramirez + Allen is 84.1 Ramirez + Cantillo is 85.6
Hendrick + McClanahan + Meadows + Stephenson + India is 87.9. According to that site - your deal is fair, not an overpay so it does not meet a deal that is too good to pass up. Again, in my opinion, this deal and the many, many other deals that you have mentioned would have the Indians take a step backward for 2021 and 2022 which would be a total waste of Shane Bieber and our current pitching staff. Also, those three roster spots may be needed during the offseason to protect players that we already have. Do we want another Santander to get away?

I also don't the what the Reds would be getting in return for their three prospects involved in your deal, but I don't see them having any interest in moving Stephenson or Hendrick based on my off season readings around MLB. Regardless, once the Indians signed Eddie Rosario and resigned Cesar Hernandez, any thoughts of trading Jose Ramirez this offseason have disappeared so can we give all of these trade proposals a rest until July at least and only if they are not in contention at that time.

 

[CDAV45]

Trading him is not inevitable. As long as the Tribe is competitive and he remains productive and healthy, he will NOT be dealt. An extension is not relevant to the discussion. (I personally do not believe he would entertain one regardless, and I doubt the Indians would either given the cost.)

The situations of Lindor and Kluber were never analogous to Ramirez's circumstances, although they argue for the proposition that the team will not trade anyone until forced to by circumstances. The fact that the team--in some eyes-- traded Lindor and Kluber one year too late only demonstrates the willingness of the team's willingness to ride players out in order to win. I find it ironic that some would contest that reality, given all the angst around here that we're never really trying.

Admit it: you were stunned by the Rosario/Hernandez signings, even though it was clear from the tenders of Hedges and Wittgren that the team was not in burn-it-to-the-ground mode. Just the pitching alone should have told you we weren't going to waste a rotation like that by dealing our best everyday player.

And please don't say you didn't feel we were going to have trouble holding off Kansas City. You've made it clear that you don't think much of this team, including using the postseason (of all things!) as a marker of the team's quality. Never mind the team was good enough to take a 3-1 lead in 2016 and a 2-0 lead in 2017, then get hosed by a cheating Houston team in 2018, then encounter all sorts of pitching disasters in 2019 but STILL erase a 13 game deficit before just falling short of the playoffs, then going toe-to-toe with the Yankees in 2020, getting over on Aroldis Chapman (again) only to have the team's illustrious closer blow it in the end. Oh yeah, all those failures are on the front office for not doing more and more and more and more. No one knows what is enough, but you seem to. The truth is, these seasons were determined by whether our players--especially star players--got it done and in all cases they just came up short. It had nothing to do with anything else. The postseason is a crapshoot, but you insist on making it the measuring stick in this discussion for whatever reason. It is the shallow argument by shallow fans: "Oh yeah, well, we've won nuthin' since 1948! Nuthin'!"

Never mind that the Cleveland Indians have the 3rd highest winning percentage all time in the American League behind only NY and BOS, and the current ownership regime has only extended our place in the rankings since taking over, we STILL have it thrown in our faces by our own fans that we are failures because of the postseason results. How patently absurd.

As long as Jose Ramirez is not an impediment to this team continuing to be a winner, he will be the Tribe's thirdbaseman. Period.

Why do I have to clarify so much to you? Stop inserting your insinuations to the conversation and we'll have a better understanding. I did not say trading him is inevitable. In fact, I pretty much stated that I prefer to extend him again and that the only way I contemplate trading him now is if he cannot be extended and the offer is too good to refuse.

Who wasn't stunned by the Hernandez and Rosario signings? They had just received 2 major league MIFers in the trade with the Mets and nobody thought that E. Rosario could be a target. The only uncertainty was how much of the money saved by the trades would be reinvested. Nobody knew that because CA didn't reveal it.

I said that KC could be a surprise team this season and I still think they could be in the sense that they won't be as bad as many think. They're not going to win the division. They could battle for 3rd in the division if things go right.

Spare me the 3rd highest winning percentage mantra. It doesn't apply to the here and now. This team's lineup as it stands now appears to be inferior to both the White Sox, Twins, and any team predicted to make the playoffs. The pitching could be as good or better than anyone else in the division, but we lost Carrasco's steady presence and performance. Those aren't small shoes to fill, but there are some nice young arms that could pick up the slack. The bigger concern is the lineup as usual. Rosario should help the OF production, but there are still big questions in CF and RF. Santana had a terrible season last year, but who is replacing him at 1B and what is their track record? While Lindor had a less than typical season last year, whoever replaces him will almost assuredly not give us the production that he could over a full season's worth of AB. I'm all for making a run in 21, but they need to do a little more yet IMO.

Not one single person ever stated or insinuated that Jose Ramirez would be an impediment to this team in any capacity. In fact, his value is derived from exactly the opposite line of thought. However, one man does not an army make, and if the overall value/quality/performance of the team can be improved by trading the best player then by all means....

Ultimately it is just ideas and conversation pieces. If you're offended by the thought of trading Ramirez then don't click on the fucking thread. I'm not at all upset in your disagreement, but your incessant need to imply falsehoods and misrepresentations can go down the road. I'm easy to get along with and I certainly don't feel the need for anyone to agree with me. Just don't misrepresent what I said or am saying to suit your agenda.

 

[CDAV45]

Commenting just on the enlarged font portion of you comment..

1. Assume this to be correct.. I think you believe ( no certainty ) extending Jose Ramirez at this point for the dollar$ it's going to take is not just unlikely.. that is.. it cannot and will not happen..

2. the offer.. There have been any number of deals presented.. none have been consumated.. The assumption is that any offers received have been refused.. so far.. There was a deal cobbled together that might meet the definition or requirement.. The Indians give up Jose Ramirez and one of Logan S. Allen or Joey Cantillo (clearing two forty man slots) and they receive Shane McClanahan LHRP, Austin Meadows OF, Austin Hendrick OF, Tyler Stephenson C and Jonathan India 3B. All five need 40 man slots.

Dumping Bradley Zimmer, Jake Bauers and Beau Taylor (resign to a MiLB contract after clearing waivers would be attempted) would clear the three additional spots on the 40 man roster...

Does this "offer" work as a too good to pass up deal?..

1. I honestly don't know, but if he can't be extended then watching him go in FA wouldn't be a prudent thing to do for an organization with thin margins.

2. The "deals" are just ideas that some of us think could/would be feasible. We don't have to agree, but having some mutual respect and refraining from talking down to each other would probably be an encouragement of conversation.

3. Let me reiterate that in order for me to support trading Ramirez now would require the 2 things I stated earlier. The first being he cannot be extended and the second being an unrefusable offer that helps make this team better going forward for years.

 

[WhoAzcue]

Who wasn't stunned by the Hernandez and Rosario signings? They had just received 2 major league MIFers in the trade with the Mets and nobody thought that E. Rosario could be a target. The only uncertainty was how much of the money saved by the trades would be reinvested. Nobody knew that because CA didn't reveal it.

I wasn't the least bit surprised. All you had to do was read the tea leaves. There wasn't a single decision the Tribe made that wasn't a sound baseball decision. Not one. As I said, had they non-tendered Hedges or Wittgren, then my antenna would have gone up. I never believed the incessant nonsense that the Indians "would never pay two catchers who can't hit nearly $10 milion." Or pay Wittgren when other arms of his quality were readily available (they're not). Carrasco was not someone we wanted to deal, but Lindor's lousy 2020 on top of his indifferent 2019 made his contract a liability, not just to us, but others. Without Carrasco we don't get Gimenez who, at worst, will be a really poor man's Omar Vizquel.

Those decisions, combined with a high ceiling rotation and backend of the bullpen should have persuaded anyone who was paying attention that the Tribe was not punting on 2021. Add in the fact that almost anything that could go wrong offensively DID go wrong and we STILL finished one game out of first. In fact, had the Indians not been so good down the stretch, they would have ended up in the easier bracket and could very easily have found themselves in the ALCS. There was no reason to expect a front office to pass on 2021 when they've told the fanbase over and over and over that the goal is consistent contention. Not overwhelming the rest of the division, not being prohibitive favorites, not a guaranteed entry to the World Series, but consistent contention. It's the only way to retain interest in baseball in Cleveland, and there was no way the Indians were going into next season without patching holes, and they did a very good job with three of them, as I fully expected signings and trades to do. It is, after all, what they do.

Naylor will have no problem eclipsing Santana's miserable 2020, nor will Luplow/DJ have any problem eclipsing Luplow/Naquin in RF. Rosario is a given to exceed what we did in LF. Gimenez had the same OPS+ as Lindor last year and is close with the glove. I worry about Hernandez backsliding a bit, but not Ramirez. The catchers will--at the very worst--have a dead cat bounce. Carrasco's loss will be mitigated because all teams will have depth issues coming off a short season and the deeper staffs go, the better off we'll be. This team is poised to be as good as last year and quite possibly better. I don't believe that the Twins or White Sox are juggernauts, and neither does PECOTA. We're in this, and the Tribe front office knew it, even before the trade and signings. There was never any indication they believed otherwise.

I apologize for leaping to conclusions concerning your stance on Ramirez, but I was merely venting my exasperation with a fanbase which bought into the national mantra that the Tribe was "stepping back" just because they were paring payroll. That was never the case, and I was disappointed again by our fans who bought into that. The Ramirez talk just seemed to play into the continued nonsense. Bewilderment at our fans should be my normal expectation, after all.

 

[CDAV45]

I wasn't the least bit surprised. All you had to do was read the tea leaves. There wasn't a single decision the Tribe made that wasn't a sound baseball decision. Not one. As I said, had they non-tendered Hedges or Wittgren, then my antenna would have gone up. I never believed the incessant nonsense that the Indians "would never pay two catchers who can't hit nearly $10 milion." Or pay Wittgren when other arms of his quality were readily available (they're not). Carrasco was not someone we wanted to deal, but Lindor's lousy 2020 on top of his indifferent 2019 made his contract a liability, not just to us, but others. Without Carrasco we don't get Gimenez who, at worst, will be a really poor man's Omar Vizquel.

Those decisions, combined with a high ceiling rotation and backend of the bullpen should have persuaded anyone who was paying attention that the Tribe was not punting on 2021. Add in the fact that almost anything that could go wrong offensively DID go wrong and we STILL finished one game out of first. In fact, had the Indians not been so good down the stretch, they would have ended up in the easier bracket and could very easily have found themselves in the ALCS. There was no reason to expect a front office to pass on 2021 when they've told the fanbase over and over and over that the goal is consistent contention. Not overwhelming the rest of the division, not being prohibitive favorites, not a guaranteed entry to the World Series, but consistent contention. It's the only way to retain interest in baseball in Cleveland, and there was no way the Indians were going into next season without patching holes, and they did a very good job with three of them, as I fully expected signings and trades to do. It is, after all, what they do.

Naylor will have no problem eclipsing Santana's miserable 2020, nor will Luplow/DJ have any problem eclipsing Luplow/Naquin in RF. Rosario is a given to exceed what we did in LF. Gimenez had the same OPS+ as Lindor last year and is close with the glove. I worry about Hernandez backsliding a bit, but not Ramirez. The catchers will--at the very worst--have a dead cat bounce. Carrasco's loss will be mitigated because all teams will have depth issues coming off a short season and the deeper staffs go, the better off we'll be. This team is poised to be as good as last year and quite possibly better. I don't believe that the Twins or White Sox are juggernauts, and neither does PECOTA. We're in this, and the Tribe front office knew it, even before the trade and signings. There was never any indication they believed otherwise.

I apologize for leaping to conclusions concerning your stance on Ramirez, but I was merely venting my exasperation with a fanbase which bought into the national mantra that the Tribe was "stepping back" just because they were paring payroll. That was never the case, and I was disappointed again by our fans who bought into that. The Ramirez talk just seemed to play into the continued nonsense. Bewilderment at our fans should be my normal expectation, after all.

First off, let me apologize as well for letting the conversation get heated when it didn't need to do so. I also was getting frustrated as it seemed I was being misunderstood or misrepresented, and maybe that was my own fault. Sometimes what seems clear in my mind isn't so in text.

We agree that Cleveland's pitching is, or should be as strength. I will still insist that the loss of Carrasco could easily have a negative effect on the performance of this staff as a whole. That is not a given though because there is some young talent that has already demonstrated that it can continue to carry the torch. Namely Quantrill and McKenzie. It does seem odd to me though that you can be so confident that inexperienced players/prospects can replace Carrasco's contribution while being so adamant that trading Ramirez will doom this team. I'm not trying to be argumentative at all, just trying to understand.

I hate using the 2020 season as an example of any type of standard, but we will for the sake of this conversation. You state that "Naylor will have no problem eclipsing Santana's miserable 2020", but Naylor's 2020 was worse than Santana's and Tito and evidently CA has publicly stated that they view Naylor as an OFer and that Bradley and Bauers will be afforded every opportunity to lockdown 1B. I honestly don't know what to make of any of it.

E. Rosario will or should continue his productive ways, but asking if being in a lesser lineup than previously will have a negative effect on his overall production is warranted IMO. I have no high offensive expectations for any of Mercado, Johnson, Naylor, Bauers, Bradley, A. Rosario, A. Gimenez or Zimmer. We're dealing with more question marks in the line up than either the Twins or the White Sox, and I don't see it as being close TBH.

My take on this offseason is consistent with how I've always felt. If they feel they can compete then don't halfass it. If they deem they need to step back and retool/rebuild then don't halfass that either. I believe that hovering between the 2 might get us a WC spot if we face enough weak opponents in the regular season, but it will get us an early exit against superior teams in the playoffs and that's what has happened the last few seasons. I'm perfectly happy to keep Ramirez, but they shouldn't be done supplementing this team if they intend to keep him. They have plenty of prospect capital to create a real contender. Right now there are just too many question marks for me to believe that this team can win the division, let alone a WS.

The only disappointment for me in trading Lindor was that it wasn't done earlier and that Carrasco had to be included to get any value whatsoever in return. Lindor's 2020 performance had little to do with the trade IMO. In the end it was all about his cost and lack of control that reduced his value. The Mets made the trade because Lindor makes them a much better team, 2020 be damned. They'll likely sign him to an incredible contract for the same reason even if the end result is the usual for those types of contracts.

 

[CATS44]

Aha!

The typical back and forth continues.

On one side are those that see JRam as a key piece...maybe THE key piece...of a winning baseball team for the next three years...which IMO is the reason to have a team in the first place. They (we) focus on the present, with a cursory interest in the future.

On the other side, those that see JRam as the key to acquiring shiny new youngsters. They are always looking to the future, with only cursory interest in the present.

One thing that should be noticed by every Tribe poster on this forum is that our future is already bright. We have prospects stacked up all the way back to A ball. So many that that the org won't be able to fit them on the roster, let alone play them all.

The future is now AND ahead.

The latter group looks back in hindsight and says with certainty that we traded Kluber and Frankie too late, although NOBODY knows what we got for either of them yet. We only know the names.

Personally, I like the present situation. We have the now and we have the future. We have the resources to acquire even more for the now, without bankrupting the future.

There are so many variables to think about when discussing the future of JRam with the Tribe. We don't know how this season will turn out. We don't know how much of a season there will be. We don't know if there will be a season next year.

We don't even know much of anything about Jose. How many know anything about his personal life? How many have ever read an in depth article on him or heard him do an extended interview with him. His interviews consist of the same three words, the only words I've ever heard him say in English (that is NOT a knock)...'Home run pitch' . He is the most anonymous elite player in baseball, maybe in all pro sports.

He doesn't self promote nor do major endorsements.

He will be 30 at the end of his present contract, including options. Even though he has been a better player than anybody not named Trout or Betts, he will never be paid nearly as much as most of the better players in the league. Maybe he wants to extend. Maybe he doesn't. Maybe he just doesn't care.

Jose recently changed agencies, going with Republik Sports. Rafa Nieves is the owner, and was with Wasserman. He has always represented Jose and specializes in Latin players. Nieves long track record as an agent is that he negotiates extensions for his clients, rather than testing free agency.

There is no realistic trade of Jose that could make us a better team now. There is no realistic trade next year that could make us a better team in 2022. There is no realistic trade in 2023 that could make us a better team then.

And right now we don't need any more prospects, esp when we don't even know what we have right now. We already have a boat load of prospects on this team to look at.

But perhaps both sides are overlooking a very real possibility...an extension.

 

[BMAN]

If we’re just going to start trading our star players with three years left because we don’t won’t get as much value I may be done with baseball. I want to actually watch good players that last longer than three years on this team. The economics is killing my enthusiasm for this sport.

 

[Gson]

If we’re just going to start trading our star players with three years left because we don’t won’t get as much value I may be done with baseball. I want to actually watch good players that last longer than three years on this team. The economics is killing my enthusiasm for this sport.

@BMAN

The argument being made is clarified as:

If you believe the loss of Hand, Lindor, Carrasco, Cimber, Clevinger, Allen, Naquin, & Santana (among others) while replacing them with the Rosario boys, Eddie & Amed, Naylor, Quantrill and Hedges makes the club more competitive with the CWSox and Twins.. then retaining Jose Ramirez until he leaves as a free agent is the right choice..

If you can smell the coffee and have your eyes open.. you might have a different opinion.. Far be it from anyone to disagree, though.. or suggest a potential resolution of the situation by acquiring players that WILL permit the club to be more competitive.. If that is the case, then trading Jose Ramirez would make sense..

Both approaches retain the services of the quality pitching staff currently in place and those that are coming in the minor league system....

Both arguments have merit.. neither is absolutely right..