Thoughts on trading Jose Ramirez

[Gson]

How does one evaluate "best"? In the last season...even a 60 game season? A 3 or maybe 5 year window would seem to be a better gauge,, and clearly Lindor is among the top in that sort of discussion. What will he do for the next few years is of course tbd.

@LL3

To answer your question about "best".. on a thread, you don't evaluate.. You read someone else's posting and rag on it.. using whatever inane or useless statistic or personal observation to decry whatever outcome you want.. It's a tactic founded primarily in religious doctrine/dogma that says.. I don't like that (what you are saying), so you're wrong & don't say that.. Then impart collectivism to support the moronic nature of the defamative response..

So.. back to your posting.. you are correct.. a larger sample size, as you've stated.. 2 or 3 or 5 years is prefered over sixty games as representative of that player's level/ability. If trend analyses can be be applied.. all the better. Personally, I like trends.. they point in the direction to be expected, not guaranteed..

The contrarian view of what, Lindor, a player, will do is found in comment.. past results are no guarantee of future performance... But we know what he's capable of and believe he will be one of the best if not thee best at his position in the coming X-Unit of time..

At least I hope so.. he's a great player with a sparkling reputation and leadership out the yin-yang... & there is not a lot more than yin-yang..

 

[WhoAzcue]

I guess "sparkling reputation" and "leadership" are more important than performance. This has been the issue over the last two years. Reputation started to exceed performance at the same time the man's cost started to skyrocket. Had performance trended upwards from 2017 rather than decline, circumstances may very well be quite different now.

Instead, we are left with this:

2019-- sOPS+ of 56, or 44% WORSE than the AVERAGE player in MLB w/RISP...forget about relative to the BEST in that situation!
2020-- sOPS+ of 53, or 47% WORSE than the AVERAGE player in MLB w/RISP...ditto.

You say you want trends? How about that trend heading to free agency? How about that kind of leadership (read: hitting) when we needed him the most?

Lindor's stats the last two years--where they look decent--were almost all empty calories. Is he awful in normal situations? No. Is he a superstar? Most definitely NOT. A superstar carries a team...can you honestly think of one amazing stretch of offense that thrilled you since Game 2 of the 2017 ALDS? A highlight reel you can put together in your mind similar to any that Jose Ramirez or Carlos Santana or even Franmil Reyes has produced?

The Mets would be wise to avoid an extension now and see how he does on the big stage under the spotlight of NY expectations. Because he didn't shoulder that responsibility well in the much smaller fishbowl here. Whether it was the "burden" of Cleveland, impending free agency, or the pressure of preserving a stellar reputation, his play on the field has not lived up to the hype.

Chances are he'll be cheaper when there's a surplus of similar options next winter anyway.

 

[Martyinnewyork]

Who - agree completely on the “empty calories” analysis on Lindor.

 

[daddywags]

Jumped into a thread titled thoughts on trading Jose Ramirez and it's all about Francisco Lindor.

 

[WhoAzcue]

Because people insist we may as well trade Ramirez because, after all, we traded Lindor and now stink.

This is a defense of the team and retaining Ramirez because it isn't the team that stinks, it was Lindor relative to reasonable expectations.

 

[sportscoach]

Why are you more worried about McKenzie and Quantrill? These 2 actually have real talent. Arguably more talent than most, and while talent is everything a player has to have it to contribute much at all. How much talent does the OF have. Luplow can mash LHP and Johnson has the highest upside unless Jones is an OFer.

McKenzie has had durability issues and the way his velocity was last season, is something I don't 100% trust. Quantrill was taken out of the rotation because he wasn't super effective in that role. I need to see what maturity brings and see if he can do that role now.

 

[Gson]

Some Atlanta fans' idea of a Jose Ramirez deal:

-Riley, Waters, Langeliars & vodnik

-Waters (37.8), then Contreras and Langaliers at C (20.6/16.6), Riley (19.5), Shewmake (12.3), and pitchers like Muller (12.5), Tucker (8.3), and more

-Pache + Langeliers + Ball + Grissom + Camargo

-Riley, Wright, Waters and Langeliers/Contreras

Any one of these four "hauls" would be at least worth consideration..

Thoughts?..

 

[Criznit]

Some Atlanta fans' idea of a Jose Ramirez deal:

-Riley, Waters, Langeliars & vodnik

-Waters (37.8), then Contreras and Langaliers at C (20.6/16.6), Riley (19.5), Shewmake (12.3), and pitchers like Muller (12.5), Tucker (8.3), and more

-Pache + Langeliers + Ball + Grissom + Camargo

-Riley, Wright, Waters and Langeliers/Contreras

Any one of these four "hauls" would be at least worth consideration..

Thoughts?..

No

 

[CDAV45]

McKenzie has had durability issues and the way his velocity was last season, is something I don't 100% trust. Quantrill was taken out of the rotation because he wasn't super effective in that role. I need to see what maturity brings and see if he can do that role now.

McKenzie needs his IP built up again. Do you question his talent and performance so far? There's enough SP depth to keep his IP under control as well. Having said that, I would trade him for a big RHH corner OF bat, but it would have to be a no brainer because I love this kids attitude and demeanor. He strikes me as the type of young man that you hope your daughters bring home.

 

[sportscoach]

McKenzie needs his IP built up again. Do you question his talent and performance so far? There's enough SP depth to keep his IP under control as well. Having said that, I would trade him for a big RHH corner OF bat, but it would have to be a no brainer because I love this kids attitude and demeanor. He strikes me as the type of young man that you hope your daughters bring home.

Not talent, his durability is what I question.

 

[hockeyjohn]

Some Atlanta fans' idea of a Jose Ramirez deal:

-Riley, Waters, Langeliars & vodnik

-Waters (37.8), then Contreras and Langaliers at C (20.6/16.6), Riley (19.5), Shewmake (12.3), and pitchers like Muller (12.5), Tucker (8.3), and more

-Pache + Langeliers + Ball + Grissom + Camargo

-Riley, Wright, Waters and Langeliers/Contreras

Any one of these four "hauls" would be at least worth consideration..

Thoughts?..

No - Not interested in any Ramirez trade at this time.

 

[CDAV45]

No - Not interested in any Ramirez trade at this time.

Believe it or not neither am I. I'm actually ready to tidy up the roster a bit and add another OFer and LHRP.

 

[BimboColesHair]

Again. Not happening this year, probably not happening next year either.

Maybe a .005% chance at the deadline, but at this point it’s not worth even discussing. Literal waste of time with how the market is and 95% of the teams are operating in the year(s) that follow Covid. On top of that, how little the Indians want to move Ramirez in the 1st place. Moving him hasn’t been on the table since 2015/winter of 2016.

 

[avs2000]

Again. Not happening this year, probably not happening next year either.

Maybe a .005% chance at the deadline, but at this point it’s not worth even discussing. Literal waste of time with how the market is and 95% of the teams are operating in the year(s) that follow Covid. On top of that, how little the Indians want to move Ramirez in the 1st place. Moving him hasn’t been on the table since 2015/winter of 2016.

With all of the quality youth in the system I do not see them adding a lot more. But some of those Atlanta deals are attractive

 

[jup]

Here is a thought

You could trade Jose to St Louis for package now that the Arenado thing seems to have gone south. Maybe you would catch them in a rebound mode, kind of like a jilted lover.