23 Offseason GM Thread

[Gson]

Plesac is still in Cleveland which means they haven't found a deal that makes sense to get another SP. It's making it very likely Plesac is a Guardian in 23...

We all know its a high probability that Cleveland got the general idea of what's the A's wanted for Irvin since they generally get that for everyone and Cleveland could have easily (and would have been willing to on paper if Plesac was traded) outbid for Irvin...

or they didn't even talk to each other.. CleFO may have determined that the guys already here are here for a very good reason.. they're better than having Irvin.. minus whoever the A's wanted for him.. whoever that might be..

 

[petes999]

A few possible issues with Irvin
1) Just like Lopez, we look at the overall numbers then fall in love but look at his home and away career splits 3.64/5.23 H/A ERA.
2) Both Plesac and Irvin are below average based on Baseball Servant with Plesac being a bit worse yet is it that big of an upgrade for what we were/are looking for? Fangraphs projections have a .6 vs .9 WAR projections for this year and Irvin is projected 40 more innings so a bit more WAR due to that.
3) The reason we all think Guard will go after a pitcher is due to going after Mahle which was a bigger upgrade and for shorter years remaining to work in our Big 3 without blocking them
Thus, even though we targeted Irvin as fans, he probably wasn't high on the FO list.

Yet, this is also a big discrepancy on BTV (#15 prospect MIF for 15 BTV with Plesac having an 8 BTV). What will Plesac get with his injury history via putting on a shirt and pounding the mound? Thus, right now, the market may be off the hook for FOR starters but #4/#5 starters maybe a bit lower than we were thinking until the remaining FAs are scooped up.

 

[CDAV45]

The main reason why Stephan ended up with that pitch he did was Parker...

Also I usually make more sense than you do...

And it was more about, I am confused about how the A's are running the team lol I bet via the national media on both Murphy and Irvin Cleveland probably gave the better offer... (We at least inquired about Irvin and his price, we just haven't gotten the Plesac deal we wanted...)

I doubt there was a single inquiry regarding Irvin. Why would there be? We don't need another BOR SP as we already have too many and are likely looking to deal our own. Again, what you say makes no sense whatsoever.

No, you don't make more sense because you like to refer to variables that have no means of measurements. They're best guesses at best.

Was it the "main reason" Stephan ended up with the pitch hed did? How do we know someone else didn't infer a different pitch or that he would have "discovered" a better pitch from someone else. It's nice to pigeon hole ideas so that it fits our narrative, but it typically lacks substance. If you've ever been in a pitching environment guys bounce stuff off of one another all the time. They discuss pitches and grips all the time and it goes both ways. It isn't just veterans to rookies. If someone has an effective pitch guys try to replicate/incorporate it.

 

[sportscoach]

I doubt there was a single inquiry regarding Irvin. Why would there be? We don't need another BOR SP as we already have too many and are likely looking to deal our own. Again, what you say makes no sense whatsoever.

No, you don't make more sense because you like to refer to variables that have no means of measurements. They're best guesses at best.

Was it the "main reason" Stephan ended up with the pitch hed did? How do we know someone else didn't infer a different pitch or that he would have "discovered" a better pitch from someone else. It's nice to pigeon hole ideas so that it fits our narrative, but it typically lacks substance. If you've ever been in a pitching environment guys bounce stuff off of one another all the time. They discuss pitches and grips all the time and it goes both ways. It isn't just veterans to rookies. If someone has an effective pitch guys try to replicate/incorporate it.

And the person that fixed and helped with his pitch was Parker...

And you said the exact reason why I want veterans and others from outside the organization in camp. Everyone has a specialty and different views on things. A guy with a mediocre changeup may want to watch and ask Morgan questions... While a young guy coming into his own may want to pick the brain of a guy who has been around a long time to learn more on how to be a big leaguer. You gotta have all types and I'm saying bring in veterans since we barely have in the organization...

 

[CDAV45]

And the person that fixed and helped with his pitch was Parker...

And you said the exact reason why I want veterans and others from outside the organization in camp. Everyone has a specialty and different views on things. A guy with a mediocre changeup may want to watch and ask Morgan questions... While a young guy coming into his own may want to pick the brain of a guy who has been around a long time to learn more on how to be a big leaguer. You gotta have all types and I'm saying bring in veterans since we barely have in the organization...

You missed the entire point of being a veteran having little to do with it, and you certainly can't say that Stephan wouldn't be an effective relief pitcher if Parker hadn't been around. You're speaking of things as if you know when there is no way to know. You've got to have talent. That's what it takes to be successful and Stephan certainly has that which is why Cleveland selected him, or are you going to say that Parker told them to select him? If having Parker around was so valuable don't you think he would still be around? Is he even signed with a team?

There is plenty of leadership on this club already, and if you're paying attention you realize that there is a certain type of character these guys need to have in order to be/remain in this organization. Work ethic, drive and coachability appear to be mandatory.

 

[petes999]

And the person that fixed and helped with his pitch was Parker...

And you said the exact reason why I want veterans and others from outside the organization in camp. Everyone has a specialty and different views on things. A guy with a mediocre changeup may want to watch and ask Morgan questions... While a young guy coming into his own may want to pick the brain of a guy who has been around a long time to learn more on how to be a big leaguer. You gotta have all types and I'm saying bring in veterans since we barely have in the organization...

And that comment about Morgan says it all ... you want the best of the best. You don't technically need a Parker. You need a Allen/Morgan who have a great change. You need a Espino and Vargas (oopps) who have/had great sliders, ..... And, we have a great pitching pitching staff who revamped Kluber and his 2-seamer (??) and teaching Cantillo how to get more force behind his FB. It's great to have vets. Invite a few to ST just to have around (show the rookies you got to continually develop or become like them). And, Parker is still available, why not just bring him back as a minor league instructor hanging around the MLB camp early with the pitchers? He showed our coaches that he can transfer his knowledge onto the younger pitchers. It doesn't mean we got to trade for every Tom, Dick and Harry just to have a vet around - even though I agree with you that we need an NRI type in 8th spot (if a 40 man spot opens to) to ride the pine and play cards with Tito. Yet Toussaint may fit the bill this year. And for every Parker that just hung on and passed down a pitch (once in a while) ... you have a younger DeSantos who actually figured out how to pitch.

 

[sportscoach]

You missed the entire point of being a veteran having little to do with it, and you certainly can't say that Stephan wouldn't be an effective relief pitcher if Parker hadn't been around. You're speaking of things as if you know when there is no way to know. You've got to have talent. That's what it takes to be successful and Stephan certainly has that which is why Cleveland selected him, or are you going to say that Parker told them to select him? If having Parker around was so valuable don't you think he would still be around? Is he even signed with a team?

There is plenty of leadership on this club already, and if you're paying attention you realize that there is a certain type of character these guys need to have in order to be/remain in this organization. Work ethic, drive and coachability appear to be mandatory.

He credits Parker teaching that pitch... His most effective pitch is something he learned from being around Parker... Without Parker, he wouldn't have been as effective.

Heck, without Bauer and Plutko, we wouldn't have a pitching factory....

Brantley and that crew say Giambi helped them more than anyone else...

 

[CDAV45]

He credits Parker teaching that pitch... His most effective pitch is something he learned from being around Parker... Without Parker, he wouldn't have been as effective.

Heck, without Bauer and Plutko, we wouldn't have a pitching factory....

Brantley and that crew say Giambi helped them more than anyone else...

You're missing the point and that is it could have been a fucking rookie that helped him. These pitchers bounce shit off each other all the time and veterans learn as much from young guys as the young guys do from veterans. It's not about age and experience. It's about new ideas and those can come from anywhere.

Stating that we wouldn't have a pitching factory without Bauer and Plutko is a bit of a reach......another best guess on your part.

You can cherry pick examples all you want, but this team doesn't need anymore "veteran leadership" than it has now. What it "needs" is to continue to promote/acquire players that are actually talented. If that talented player happens to be a veteran then fine. If that talented player isn't a veteran then that's fine too.

 

[sportscoach]

Dodgers & Guardians & Pirates » Baseball Trade Values

At baseballtradevalues.com, baseball fans can propose trades using accurate values of over 2,300 players as if they’re the GM of their favorite baseball team.

www.baseballtradevalues.com

I posted this last night and I am actually liking it more and more...

Cleveland gets
SP Pepiot
3B/Util Triolo

Dodgers get
OF Reynolds

Pirates get
2B/INF Busch
SP Allen (Cle)
SP Stone
OF Outman

I am the only one who likes it, it seems lol

Plus I believe Cleveland needs to make a second trade to make it work correctly... so hmm....

Guardians & Rangers » Baseball Trade Values

At baseballtradevalues.com, baseball fans can propose trades using accurate values of over 2,300 players as if they’re the GM of their favorite baseball team.

www.baseballtradevalues.com

Something like this...

Guardians get
LHP Bratt
MiF Saggese

Texas gets
SP Plesac
2B/LF Palacios

So out would be Allen, Plesac, Palacios

In would be Pepiot, Triolo, Bratt and Saggese...

Pepiot would compete with the other young talent and maybe a veteran or two on a MiLB deal for the last rotation spot...

 

[petes999]

Dodgers & Guardians & Pirates » Baseball Trade Values

At baseballtradevalues.com, baseball fans can propose trades using accurate values of over 2,300 players as if they’re the GM of their favorite baseball team.

www.baseballtradevalues.com

I posted this last night and I am actually liking it more and more...

Cleveland gets
SP Pepiot
3B/Util Triolo

Dodgers get
OF Reynolds

Pirates get
2B/INF Busch
SP Allen (Cle)
SP Stone
OF Outman

I am the only one who likes it, it seems lol

Plus I believe Cleveland needs to make a second trade to make it work correctly... so hmm....

Guardians & Rangers » Baseball Trade Values

At baseballtradevalues.com, baseball fans can propose trades using accurate values of over 2,300 players as if they’re the GM of their favorite baseball team.

www.baseballtradevalues.com

Something like this...

Guardians get
LHP Bratt
MiF Saggese

Texas gets
SP Plesac
2B/LF Palacios

So out would be Allen, Plesac, Palacios

In would be Pepiot, Triolo, Bratt and Saggese...

Pepiot would compete with the other young talent and maybe a veteran or two on a MiLB deal for the last rotation spot...

As for other part of deal, I don't know why Texas wants Plesac. They got better pitching w Ordorizzi, Duffy, Dunning and Winn in reserve for their front 5 older starting staff.

And, Pitt may not even trade Reynolds and upper level pitching isn't that big of need. I would assume they want high upside players off 40 like Cambell/Francisca/Genao over Allen.

 

[sportscoach]

As for other part of deal, I don't know why Texas wants Plesac. They got better pitching w Ordorizzi, Duffy, Dunning and Winn in reserve for their front 5 older starting staff.

And, Pitt may not even trade Reynolds and upper level pitching isn't that big of need. I would assume they want high upside players off 40 like Cambell/Francisca/Genao over Allen.

Now, you aren't wrong with Plesac, I am not sure which team would like Plesac currently. The deal is more about getting solid prospects back for Plesac than anything else to create the roster spots for Pepiot and Triolo...

Actually the rumor for Pittsburgh is they really want pitching for Reynolds... I was thinking getting Stone and Allen, would help them in 24 no problem plus Busch and Outman are honestly ROY candidate in 23 for the Pirates... I actually think Outman and Busch can easily produce way more WAR than Reynolds by himself... Now are Stone and Allen high enough prospects on the pitching side to get Reynolds...

 

[CDAV45]

Dodgers & Guardians & Pirates » Baseball Trade Values

At baseballtradevalues.com, baseball fans can propose trades using accurate values of over 2,300 players as if they’re the GM of their favorite baseball team.

www.baseballtradevalues.com

I posted this last night and I am actually liking it more and more...

Cleveland gets
SP Pepiot
3B/Util Triolo

Dodgers get
OF Reynolds

Pirates get
2B/INF Busch
SP Allen (Cle)
SP Stone
OF Outman

I am the only one who likes it, it seems lol

Plus I believe Cleveland needs to make a second trade to make it work correctly... so hmm....

Guardians & Rangers » Baseball Trade Values

At baseballtradevalues.com, baseball fans can propose trades using accurate values of over 2,300 players as if they’re the GM of their favorite baseball team.

www.baseballtradevalues.com

Something like this...

Guardians get
LHP Bratt
MiF Saggese

Texas gets
SP Plesac
2B/LF Palacios

So out would be Allen, Plesac, Palacios

In would be Pepiot, Triolo, Bratt and Saggese...

Pepiot would compete with the other young talent and maybe a veteran or two on a MiLB deal for the last rotation spot...

How about you send Triolo to Pittsburgh and Outman to Cleveland. Then and only then would I consider this. This is a great trade for Pittsburgh and LA in their respective positions. Cleveland however isn't getting much and I see no need for Triolo. Yeah I pretty much think this deal sucks.

Edited to say the deal with Texas sucks even more.

 

[sportscoach]

How about you send Triolo to Pittsburgh and Outman to Cleveland. Then and only then would I consider this. This is a great trade for Pittsburgh and LA in their respective positions. Cleveland however isn't getting much and I see no need for Triolo. Yeah I pretty much think this deal sucks.

Edited to say the deal with Texas sucks even more.

Look at Triolo's profile and numbers... I think you will like him...

The second one isnt exactly perfect... It was more of Trade Plesac and Palacios for prospects...

 

[Gson]

Look at Triolo's profile and numbers... I think you will like him...

The second one isnt exactly perfect... It was more of Trade Plesac and Palacios for prospects...

Triolo = AAAA ceiling.. ez pass..

 

[sportscoach]

Triolo = AAAA ceiling.. ez pass..

@Tondo do you agree?

I mean a .286/.376/.419 slash line at AA is nothing to sneeze at plus he actually is a plus defensive 3B...

Then again you guys said Donovan of the Cardinals was an easy pass as well...