23 Offseason GM Thread

[CATS44]

It isnt difficult to Google a ton of articles on the Clevinger trade, so I suggest anybody who feels that Arias was in anyway the centerpiece of that deal.

The Indians at the time were looking for young MLB talent that could be plugged into the team quickly.

They needed a young MLB pitcher that could end up in the rotation fairly soon..a legit candidate to replace Clevinger. They got Quantrill, a former 1st rounder and top 50 prospect.

They needed a young MLB corner power bat that could actually make contact. Carlos was 34 and wasn't returning. Naquin was the primary LF, and wasn't returning. They got Naylor, another former 1st rounder and top 100 prospect.

They needed a defensive oriented catcher to back up, and eventually replace, the oft injured Berto. There were no decent catching prospects anywhere close to being MLB ready. They got Hedges, generally considered the best all around defensive catcher in baseball.

But if you dont want to take the time to look this stuff up, and just want to pretend that trading Clev for an A ball MIF was the deal, go ahead.

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Once again, for those who actually read posts, I am not 'down' on Arias. But I dont think of him as highly as other MIF prospects we have/had. Kids like Gimenez and Rocchio. There is at least one major hole in his game, which almost every scouting report mentions. And its a problem that very few prospects overcome.

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And yet again, for the umpteenth time on this forum...and I will emphasize it for the comprehension challenged...

MY HOPE IS THAT ARIAS BECOMES OUR NEW CASEY BLAKE....a super sub that can replace whatever black hole shows up in our lineup...a kid that could competently, offensively and defensively, replace any infielder or corner outfielder who got hurt or fell on his face. Thats my hope, because he is the only player I see in the upper levels of this org who might be able to.

None of our outfielders can do that, and I dont see another infielder that could.

If there is anybody that does not understand any of this, I cannot help them, because I've put it in the most elementary terms I know.

 

[CATS44]

I dont agree that Arias has the most talent of the group traded for. He is the most athletic and versatile.

Naylor has real power to go with a real hit tool. Quantrill is a solidly consistent MOR.

Ty Cobb was a hell of a player...a pure jerk, but a hell of a player. In his defense, he did mellow out when he got much older.

 

[MadThinker88]

No to Keston Huira…..

And IIRC he is ineligible to be the PTBNL from the Owen Miller trade…

 

[CDAV45]

Just a quick look at the roster 5 days before the opener in Seattle.

The rotation is set with Bieber, McKenzie, Quantrill, Civale and Plesac. Gaddis and Curry both had good springs and look ready for ML opportunities. Morris is throwing with weighted balls and long tossing. All of Allen, Pilkington, Battenfield and Cantillo will be in Columbus. Bibee, Williams and Espino will start the season in Akron. I listed those 15 because that's who I see as the ML SP depth chart. Something is gonna have to give isn't it? I think Hankins is going to take off this season and regain his prospect status he had prior to the TJS. That list isn't just a bunch of scraps thrown together either. These guys have real talent to varying degrees.

Be interesting to see what happens when Hentges returns. I'd guess Gaddis goes back to Columbus to pitch out of the rotation. Other than that the BP looks even better than last year at this time IMO. They basically replaced the only weak spot it had(Shaw).

Thankfully Arias doesn't appear to have any broken bones in his hand so he'll be good to go by opening day. If he continues to hit like he did in the playoffs and this spring then he should be our starting SS. If you'd prefer him at 2B I don't care because Gimenez is awesome at either as well. Hopefully Rocchio hits the ground running in Columbus because an IF trio of Gimenez, Arias and Rocchio would be pretty damn nice. I still like the idea of adding someone like Rengifo as the utility once Amed is gone(whenever that may be).

If they wanted to use any of(not all obviously) Civale, Plesac, Rosario, Arias, Allen, Rocchio, Freeman, Valera, Brennan, Gaddis, Curry, Sandlin or even Karinchak to land a badass bat or SP I'd be cool with it.

 

[CDAV45]

For S&G's and because I was bored I posted a trade on the BTV site that sent Espino, Rocchio, Valera, Allen and Brennan to Pittsburgh for Reynolds and Keller. Is that something that anyone here would do? Reynolds would have to take over CF duties for this to work, but we all know he doesn't play defense out there like Straw.

Keller would take over the #3 spot moving Quantrill and Civale/Plesac down. This deal would require one of them to be dealt, but that seems inevitable anyway.

 

[sportscoach]

For S&G's and because I was bored I posted a trade on the BTV site that sent Espino, Rocchio, Valera, Allen and Brennan to Pittsburgh for Reynolds and Keller. Is that something that anyone here would do? Reynolds would have to take over CF duties for this to work, but we all know he doesn't play defense out there like Straw.

Keller would take over the #3 spot moving Quantrill and Civale/Plesac down. This deal would require one of them to be dealt, but that seems inevitable anyway.

I honestly wouldnt do it... We are giving upnway to much in my mind...

 

[CDAV45]

I honestly wouldnt do it... We are giving upnway to much in my mind...

It's a lot for sure and I'm not comfortable with it either, but you know how I am. I did it just to get a feel from the "our window is now" crowd.

I do like Keller though and if he could be obtained in a fair deal then I wouldn't be against it. What's fair you ask? I have no idea.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

This clears 2 roster spots:
Valera
Williams
Plesac

for B. Reynolds
That's an overpay on BTV. Who pulls the trigger?

 

[Gson]

Who's to say the talks with Amed Rosario's camp regarding an extension was:

1. Limited in length of time: 2 to 4 years
2. Limited in value: commensurate with the $$ CleFO believes (less than $ 10MM/AAV)
3. Limited in words: CleFO: Here's what we have in mind... Amed's Camp: That's not enough..

Click, end of negotiations..

This gives the CleFO ample reason to pursue a trade with at least tacit belief that Amed's camp wants more time and higher AAV than the CleFO is willing to support..

Thoughts?

 

[CDAV45]

This clears 2 roster spots:
Valera
Williams
Plesac

for B. Reynolds
That's an overpay on BTV. Who pulls the trigger?

I don't. Replace Williams with Allen and add Rocchio or another prospect not named Bibee or Williams and it would probably fly with me. Probably have to add Brennan too. I have to ask who goes if it were to happen? Reynolds taking over CF? They aren't going to sit OGon or Kwan so unless they are willing to cut into the great Myles Straw's playing time then it's probably not a fit.

At this point I think they'd be more interested in dealing for Keller than Reynolds.

 

[sportscoach]

This clears 2 roster spots:
Valera
Williams
Plesac

for B. Reynolds
That's an overpay on BTV. Who pulls the trigger?

I don't. Replace Williams with Allen and add Rocchio or another prospect not named Bibee or Williams and it would probably fly with me. Probably have to add Brennan too. I have to ask who goes if it were to happen? Reynolds taking over CF? They aren't going to sit OGon or Kwan so unless they are willing to cut into the great Myles Straw's playing time then it's probably not a fit.

At this point I think they'd be more interested in dealing for Keller than Reynolds.

It won't work from either side...

Cleveland isn't going to give up Williams, and Pittsburgh doesn't want Plesac.

Pittsburgh wants a better SP prospect than Allen as well

Aka Pittsburgh is likely wanting one of Williams, Espino or Bibee, plus OGonz/Valera, Allen and another prospect...

Cleveland will likely offer OGonz/Valera, Allen plus another prospect if they are still interested in Reynolds at all...

 

[CATS44]

Any trade for Keller would mean we would be buying high....just like any trade of Civale or Plesac would mean we would be selling low.

Basically, results wise, they are the same pitcher. Its a sideways move.

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If we traded for Reynolds, it would be to settle any questions about one corner outfield position...Oscar/Brennan. At least one of them would probably be part of the package going to Pittsburgh.

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With major questions hovering over Espino now, it is now problematic to trade either Williams or Bibee.

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If Amed is extended...a big if...the dynamics of our MIF prospect situation would change dynamically. It would make every MIF prospect on the 40 man expendable...and the longer we hold onto any of them, the quicker their values run out, as they run out of options.

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The question would become what exactly would we target as a significant long term upgrade? And that would be an interesting debate.

A big corner outfield bat?

A major addition to the rotation?

An elite back end reliever?

A major long term 1B/DH type?

To me, the answer would have been an elite catcher, but that ship sailed when we didn't acquire Murphy.

But whatever it would be, IMO it would have to be somebody that the FO could reasonably expect annual 4 WAR value....or a truly elite back end reliever, like Miller was.

 

[CDAV45]

It won't work from either side...

Cleveland isn't going to give up Williams, and Pittsburgh doesn't want Plesac.

Pittsburgh wants a better SP prospect than Allen as well

Aka Pittsburgh is likely wanting one of Williams, Espino or Bibee, plus OGonz/Valera, Allen and another prospect...

Cleveland will likely offer OGonz/Valera, Allen plus another prospect if they are still interested in Reynolds at all...

I don’t think they would offer OGon. Why would they? He was as productive as Reynolds last season.

 

[CDAV45]

It won't work from either side...

Cleveland isn't going to give up Williams, and Pittsburgh doesn't want Plesac.

Pittsburgh wants a better SP prospect than Allen as well

Aka Pittsburgh is likely wanting one of Williams, Espino or Bibee, plus OGonz/Valera, Allen and another prospect...

Cleveland will likely offer OGonz/Valera, Allen plus another prospect if they are still interested in Reynolds at all...

I don't know why you're telling me Pittsburgh doesn't want Plesac. I never said they did and I actually think there is no reason for them to have interest in Plesac unless they think they could flip him prior to the 24 season for a couple of good prospects and/or they need the ML innings from him in 23.

I think the Reynolds ship has sailed and like I said earlier, I believe Cleveland would have more interest in Keller than Reynolds. At least they should IMO. Keller has TOR stuff and is just coming into his age 27 season where it seems many SP put it all together. Some genius mentioned Civale and Plesac were comparable and that's just ridiculous when looking at it from a talent perspective. I say trade for Keller and immediately extend him before he puts up a CY season. There's a very good chance that Bieber won't accept the extension offer from Cleveland forcing them to deal him at some point. Hell, use Espino to get Keller and then whenever they do trade Bieber to the Dodgers they can get Stone in return and nothing much is lost. Better not wait until next offseason to do it though because Stone will be pitching in Dodger stadium this season.

 

[sportscoach]

I don’t think they would offer OGon. Why would they? He was as productive as Reynolds last season.

Reynolds is better in the corner OF than OGonz is plus Reynolds has an all around better bat that is a way more traditional and predictable style in a sense.

OGonz is the exception when it comes to production since on paper, he makes no sense to keep up his production. While you know what you have with Reynolds and Reynolds will take walks. Plus Reynolds started off really bad, which is out of his norm for him. Reynolds will likely be above 130+ while OGonz probably will never get above the 120 area he did since he does not take walks...

I don't think OGonz in the Reynolds deal is something Cleveland is against on paper, but Pirates want to really get a SP heavy return for Reynolds and we aren't going to do so...