Collin Sexton | The Young Bull

[ryanf]

Donovan Mitchell is like the 4th best player on the Jazz.

If we get to a point where Sexton is even our 3rd best player, we'll be looking pretty good.

I normally respect your takes, but this got me ????? Who are the 3 best players in that jazz team?

 

[inliner311]

It's worrying. And it's on the horizon. We are about to run out of options, and while Collin scores extremely well, there's a good deal of it that looks like empty-calories. I don't even know where you could deal him if you wanted to go that route.

Maybe OKC could use him next to SGA? The Lakers would love him off the bench, but they have zero assets. Spurs have a bigger PG they could pair Collin with, could you make a Keldon Johnson deal for Collin work? Would the Spurs even want that? Could it be Vassell? He fits the prototype 2 in theory.

More likely, some sort of draft day trade that includes pick swapping if anything. It's an interesting thought experiment, because for as good as Sexton scores for the Cavs, it's hard to think of another NBA team that would give a somewhat high value asset in return.

The reason why there wouldn't be a bunch of teams lining up to trade for him with a high value asset is because what makes him unique as a player wouldn't really be the missing piece for pretty much any team. If a team had size to compensate for Sexton to play SG, their GM most likely values size and would probably be looking to get a scoring SG with size.

Sexton might not be a 1a type player but he definitely could be a top tier #2. It's more on Koby that we don't have the pieces to work with Sexton since Koby hasn't built at all to value size.

Garland probably is the easier player to trade if we are able to draft a tall PG. Okoro is basically a sunk cost at this point because the amount of develop he needs paired with his draft position. The front office will most likely value Okoro more than the market for many years.

 

[Derek]

I normally respect your takes, but this got me ????? Who are the 3 best players in that jazz team?

Gobert is definitely their best, then Conley and Ingles.

Ingles is debatable, but I'd take him over Mitchell.

 

["MVP"]

The Sexton for Herro hypothetical trade is a significant talent downgrade for the Cavs, regardless of "ease to build a team around". I don't think the Cavs are at the stage to downgrade talent.

 

["MVP"]

Gobert is definitely their best, then Conley and Ingles.

Ingles is debatable, but I'd take him over Mitchell.

Ingles is on pace to have the highest TS% in league history, I believe. Conley has bounced back in a major way and the advanced stats show he may be the single most important player on the Jazz.

I can't in good faith take either of them over Mitchell. Especially after seeing what Mitchell has been able to do in the playoffs. When the defense tightens up, as it will down the stretch in big playoff games, he's their only guy I feel confident in getting to the rim and creating offense for himself and the team.

 

[Derek]

Ingles is on pace to have the highest TS% in league history, I believe. Conley has bounced back in a major way and the advanced stats show he may be the single most important player on the Jazz.

I can't in good faith take either of them over Mitchell. Especially after seeing what Mitchell has been able to do in the playoffs. When the defense tightens up, as it will down the stretch in big playoff games, he's their only guy I feel confident in getting to the rim and creating offense for himself and the team.

That's fair, but I honestly haven't been too impressed with Mitchell's playoff performance. He's had some huge games, absolutely, but he's also had some big-time stinkers (he was mostly terrible in the playoffs before last season).

 

[inliner311]

Physically-your opinion
Mentally-your opinion
Statistically-you are wrong

Versus Finder | Player and Team Comparison and Head-to-Head Stats - Pro Basketball | Stathead.com

Versus Finder is a comparison tool by Stathead.com that lets you compare players and teams across basketball. If you're looking for head-to-head comparisons, the Versus Finder is your go-to tool

stathead.com

Let's compare both as 22 yr old's. Lets also remember Mitchell has played with WAY better teammates and at this point one coach who is clearly better than 4 coaches.

Almost every single stat is very very close-many of which Collin is the leader.

More spacing and better shooting teammates would make Collin a BETTER player-there is zero doubt on that. It is common sense actually. Give an elite super fast guard more space to get to the rim-and he will be more efficient.

Also the Jazz are 4-1 this season when Mitchell doesn't play-only loss they have Gobert and Conley sat also. That is a great TEAM.

Here is the thing--I think Mitchell is a great player-but not a superstar. I think Collin is on his way to being a great player--can he become a superstar? I don't know yet. But if I am wagering, he will be an all star at some point.

Compare assist rates with Mitchell at 22 and Collin. Expected assists, etc.

Players Passing

A table featuring passing information for each player in the league based on selected filters.

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Here is what a 6th man is:

Player Comparison: Collin Sexton vs. Lou Williams | Stathead.com

Player Comparison: Collin Sexton vs. Lou Williams

stathead.com

That is Lou Williams 10th season in the league-Collins 3rd in the comparison. Collin is so much more efficient shooting the ball than Lou ever was.

Here is another 6th man for you:

Player Comparison: Collin Sexton vs. Jamal Crawford | Stathead.com

Player Comparison: Collin Sexton vs. Jamal Crawford

stathead.com

I think people discount efficacy so much when talking about the difference between a sixth man and a starter. Sexton has shown with increased minutes and touches he can increase his scoring at a near equal rate. Sixth man can't do that, usually they have to have a good coach or player on the floor that can feel them out to keep them in check. Clarkson is prime example of this, the Jazz are just able to keep him in check more than the Cavs were able to and he is playing better. On the flip side, Lue and the clippers weren't able to manage Lou Williams and they basically stop using him then shipped him off to Atlanta for Rondo.

 

[Lee]

You won't be able to make that choice on paying him, Collin will demand max money as your "best player", and if you don't meet him, or come damn close, he will inevitably "bet on himself" at which point you've lost your leverage.

Yes, the bet is if he develops PG instincts.. which probably means you need to cut ties with Garland, and/or find a better match for Sexton defensively. I just don't believe Sexton develops those instincts. I see him as a 6th man because he plays a tunnel vision style of offense, and that could be leveraged with a 2nd unit, vs starters where you typically want to establish more guys.

Ben Gordon was a good player, too. People think the comp is mean or degrading, but Ben played a similar game on successful Bulls teams, but ultimately was limited by his height and length.

The Ben Gordon comparison is legit. I think Sexton is a better version of Ben. Gordon played 3 years in college, then his best pro season was season 3. Sexton is ahead of Ben in that way as Sexton came into the league after only 1 year of college.

Gordon was a 40% 3 point shooter and could finish. He was also a sg in a pg's body. I think ultimately Sexton is the better player, but isnt Iverson good that could carry a team. Iverson was a better finisher and a much, much better passer.

I could see 6th man for Sexton, but i am not ready to say he has to be a 6th man at this point although ultimately that might end up true.

 

[weepinwillow]

The reason why there wouldn't be a bunch of teams lining up to trade for him with a high value asset is because what makes him unique as a player wouldn't really be the missing piece for pretty much any team. If a team had size to compensate for Sexton to play SG, their GM most likely values size and would probably be looking to get a scoring SG with size.

Sexton might not be a 1a type player but he definitely could be a top tier #2. It's more on Koby that we don't have the pieces to work with Sexton since Koby hasn't built at all to value size.

Garland probably is the easier player to trade if we are able to draft a tall PG. Okoro is basically a sunk cost at this point because the amount of develop he needs paired with his draft position. The front office will most likely value Okoro more than the market for many years.

I just think you will need to pay him as a 1A type guy for all the reasons you guys love: he's been made the face of the franchise, he has good shooting %'s and he scores tons of points. However the team is dead last in points, and bottom of the league in FG%, 3p FG%, 3p attempted, and 6th in turnovers with Collin getting the bulk of the decision making along with Darius. Getting your teammates good looks is part of the game.

I'm not discounting efficiency, I'm saying Collin's efficiency in personal scoring numbers comes at the detriment of his team's overall efficiency. And when paired with his defensive inefficiency, it's not as valuable to the team as many here think it is (in my opinion).

I don't think Sexton and Garland are a good match, and it's not good that the Cavs don't have a solid 2nd unit PG either (I mean, god love Delly and all..) Both G's hold the ball too much (for different reasons) and neither are solid defenders in a league that needs solid perimeter defense from your G's. I agree that Garland is the easier one to deal, though he's probably the better one to keep, I don't agree on Okoro, I think you'd get several teams interested in his skill set, Popovich would be all over Isaac.

Cavs are going to need to pick a horse soon.

 

[OptimusPrime]

I just think you will need to pay him as a 1A type guy

Even if the Cavs pay him the max, that's the going rate for first, second, and some third options on good teams. Not just 1A type guy. It's ok if he gets paid.

 

[inliner311]

I just think you will need to pay him as a 1A type guy for all the reasons you guys love: he's been made the face of the franchise, he has good shooting %'s and he scores tons of points. However the team is dead last in points, and bottom of the league in FG%, 3p FG%, 3p attempted, and 6th in turnovers with Collin getting the bulk of the decision making along with Darius. Getting your teammates good looks is part of the game.

I'm not discounting efficiency, I'm saying Collin's efficiency in personal scoring numbers comes at the detriment of his team's overall efficiency. And when paired with his defensive inefficiency, it's not as valuable to the team as many here think it is (in my opinion).

I don't think Sexton and Garland are a good match, and it's not good that the Cavs don't have a solid 2nd unit PG either (I mean, god love Delly and all..) Both G's hold the ball too much (for different reasons) and neither are solid defenders in a league that needs solid perimeter defense from your G's. I agree that Garland is the easier one to deal, though he's probably the better one to keep, I don't agree on Okoro, I think you'd get several teams interested in his skill set, Popovich would be all over Isaac.

Cavs are going to need to pick a horse soon.

It doesn't hurt to pay a guy like Sexton the max especially the max amount for player after their rookie contract. Even if Sexton projects to be the 2nd best player on this team, that still equals max money. Even paying your 3rd best player the max isn't horrible especially if that makes your team a top tier playoff team.

With Okoro, I doubt anyone gives up a high value asset for him. Someone probably give up a mid to late first round pick for him but the Cavs won't deal him for that.

Garland and Sexton arent a good pairing more because Garland just doesn't fit the profile for what you need for a small backcourt. He doesn't like to push the pace. He has no ability to put the team on his back and carry them. He doesn't have the ability to pick up his play to offset the rare nights when Sexton isn't playing well. I don't even see him as someone we should built around as our 2nd best player. I do think he has value though because he could round out a starting unit with two or more star players and he play very well in that role. A team like the clippers, if they had assets would pay up for Garland.

 

[CavsFan07]

That's fair, but I honestly haven't been too impressed with Mitchell's playoff performance. He's had some huge games, absolutely, but he's also had some big-time stinkers (he was mostly terrible in the playoffs before last season).

Derek... my man.... Saying Mitchell is the 4th best player on the Jazz is a top 3 worst take I've ever seen on this forum...

In terms of your statement about being bad in the playoffs..

His ROOKIE SEASON he led the Jazz out of the first round with 24.4 PPG, 6 RPG, and 4 APG... As a rookie!

Here's a stat for you... "Mitchell set a new record for points by a shooting guard in the team's first two postseason games with 55 points, breaking Michael Jordan's record of 53 points."

His sophomore season yes, they lost in the first round and his numbers went down..

Then last year exploded in the playoffs for 36 PPG, 5 RPG, 5 APG, 53% FG%, 52% 3PT%, and 95% FT%. In only his 3rd season.


I respect the Jazz as an organization and think they have one of the better coaches in the league but come on.... Mitchell is a 24 year old STAR who's made the All-Star game in 2 of his 4 seasons.... come on now.

 

[Derek]

Derek... my man.... Saying Mitchell is the 4th best player on the Jazz is a top 3 worst take I've ever seen on this forum...

In terms of your statement about being bad in the playoffs..

His ROOKIE SEASON he led the Jazz out of the first round with 24.4 PPG, 6 RPG, and 4 APG... As a rookie!

Here's a stat for you... "Mitchell set a new record for points by a shooting guard in the team's first two postseason games with 55 points, breaking Michael Jordan's record of 53 points."

His sophomore season yes, they lost in the first round and his numbers went down..

Then last year exploded in the playoffs for 36 PPG, 5 RPG, 5 APG, 53% FG%, 52% 3PT%, and 95% FT%. In only his 3rd season.


I respect the Jazz as an organization and think they have one of the better coaches in the league but come on.... Mitchell is a 24 year old STAR who's made the All-Star game in 2 of his 3 seasons.... come on now.

I just don't think Mitchell is more valuable to the Jazz than Gobert (not-debatable), Ingles (debatable), or Conley (debatable).

Just because a guy is a leading scorer doesn't mean he's the one leading them.

 

[RchfldCavRaised]

I just don't think Mitchell is more valuable to the Jazz than Gobert (not-debatable), Ingles (debatable), or Conley (debatable).

Just because a guy is a leading scorer doesn't mean he's the one leading them.

@Derek we are on the same page here with Mitchell

I believe just like with how Steph Curry depends on Draymond doing the intangibles and dirty work to free him up to focus on scoring more, Mitchell relies on Conley and Ingles on offense and all 3 of those guys on the other end to put him in a position where he can pick and choose how much energy to put into scoring vs the other aspects of the game.

What he did in the first round of last years playoffs was unique in that it was the perfect matchup with two teams approaching each other similarly on offense. It wasnt really Mitchell vs Murray that decided that series. It was Jokic vs Gobert and Ingles initiating vs Craig & Grant. It was funny watching Mike Malone literally make substitutions to keep one of those defenders on Ingles at all times. When Conley returned after a few games, he had to do it with both Conley and Ingles.

Mitchell is special, but there's to irony on Clarkson coming off the bench and giving them pretty much the exact same production. Both of them have had the game and their role simplified by Snyder's system and those 3 players, Gobert, Conley and Ingles playing their roles perfectly and consistently to a tee.

 

[RchfldCavRaised]

All of that to say...

The Utah Jazz are not built around Mitchell. Mitchell plays the most celebrated role but just like big time pass catching WR's in football, I believe that role can be filled by other guys scoring as long as the guys who enable him to focus on scoring and closing are doing their jobs at this level like the best pass catchers rely on O-Line giving the QB time and the backs keeping defenses honest.

You replace Gobert with a less impactful defender and rim runner, and replace Conley/Ingles with worse offensive initiators and Mitchell looks like that frustrated undersized score first guard who defenses can shut down like they did before Conley got there all over again