Collin Sexton | The Young Bull

[avs2000]

It is not about embracing Colin. No one questions his dedication to the game, his natural talent or even what he has done during his time in Cleveland.

It is about trying to determine the best path forward for the organization and how Colin's fits into the future.

Can you build a franchise around a 6'1" shooting guard? If you give a guy like Colin a max deal in in 2023, does he provide enough to offset the opportunity costs of having that kind of money tied up in one player?

Those types of questions are not being asked because Cavs fans are not embracing Colin, rather, they are being asked because the Cavs are not a good nor are they close to being a good basketball team.

The discussion is simple. Colin plays for a bad team. On bad teams, someone has to take shots and score points. Colin is both the primary shot-taker and scorer on said bad team. Trying to figure out how that translates to a good team is certainly fair especially since you also have determine how to allocate limited future resources (salary cap).

Who saying build a team around just him
Your going to build it around Sexland okoro Allen and nance
I think we picked up some decent bench players in hartenstein Wade and stevens

have a 5-6 lottery pick coming in. Maybe a Solid non all star fa in the off season.
I like where we are headed

 

[weepinwillow]

it's not just the money, it's also the fit.. your two best offensive players are 6'1" and neither is particularly adept at defense and both can dominate the offensive possession, sometimes to the team's detriment. So when we talk about efficiency we should talk about the team's overall efficiency on both ends of the floor. And from a team perspective, it's not a pretty picture:

30th in points, 23rd in FG%, 29th in EFG%, 29th in 3pt FG%, 26th in FT%, TS% 29th, 25th in Pace, 21st in Asst., 7th in Turnovers, 28th in TOV% and 29th in AST/TO.

Maybe that's all a function of health and some varying injury issues this year, maybe it's because we started Cedi Osman some nights, or because Isaac doesn't have a great stroke etc.. I'm OK with that assessment, but I also think it's got a little to do with how our G's play.

I'm ok with saying we need to wait to see how Okoro develops year 1 to year 2 and who we get in the draft, and see what happens if we can upgrade a few spots on the bench.. I get that it's not a finished product.

I also get that the small backcourt will be an ongoing issue and wondering how to make that work through the prism of a winning team doesn't mean a person can't get behind a player's individual talents. Because without the winning, efficient scoring is only good for a person's fantasy team.

If they don't start winning next year, you know we are looking at yet another blow up. And we are back to being an unstable franchise and playing the lottery yet again.

 

[2 For The Brew]

it's not just the money, it's also the fit.. your two best offensive players are 6'1" and neither is particularly adept at defense and both can dominate the offensive possession, sometimes to the team's detriment. So when we talk about efficiency we should talk about the team's overall efficiency on both ends of the floor. And from a team perspective, it's not a pretty picture:

30th in points, 23rd in FG%, 29th in EFG%, 29th in 3pt FG%, 26th in FT%, TS% 29th, 25th in Pace, 21st in Asst., 7th in Turnovers, 28th in TOV% and 29th in AST/TO.

Maybe that's all a function of health and some varying injury issues this year, maybe it's because we started Cedi Osman some nights, or because Isaac doesn't have a great stroke etc.. I'm OK with that assessment, but I also think it's got a little to do with how our G's play.

I'm ok with saying we need to wait to see how Okoro develops year 1 to year 2 and who we get in the draft, and see what happens if we can upgrade a few spots on the bench.. I get that it's not a finished product.

I also get that the small backcourt will be an ongoing issue and wondering how to make that work through the prism of a winning team doesn't mean a person can't get behind a player's individual talents. Because without the winning, efficient scoring is only good for a person's fantasy team.

If they don't start winning next year, you know we are looking at yet another blow up. And we are back to being an unstable franchise and playing the lottery yet again.

I’d buy into placing some blame for the offense on the play of the guards if we had front court players who were efficient scorers.

Outside of Love who’s been hurt most of the year who on this team is an efficient scorer? Allen doesn’t score enough and is very limited offensively. Nance has been hurt and isn’t good for more than 10 ppg.

Fact is SexLand has to carry a bunch of sorry-ass offensive players.

 

[Littaguy714]

Who saying build a team around just him
Your going to build it around Sexland okoro Allen and nance
I think we picked up some decent bench players in hartenstein Wade and stevens

have a 5-6 lottery pick coming in. Maybe a Solid non all star fa in the off season.
I like where we are headed

That is the whole point. The Cavs need to figure it out. I would argue if you give a guy a max contract you are stating your intention to build the team around him though.

Neither Garland, Okoro or Allen are going to sniff a max contract when their time comes.

I would question whether or not Nance is part of the future. He is already 28 years old and his elite athleticism is what makes him so valuable.

Athletic big men do not age well in the NBA, least of all ones who tend to be injury prone.

The Cavs should consider shopping him this offseason if there is a trade that makes sense.

Once the decline starts, it is usually pretty rapid and by that point, it it too late.

 

[MirORich]

That is the whole point. The Cavs need to figure it out. I would argue if you give a guy a max contract you are stating your intention to build the team around him though.

Neither Garland, Okoro or Allen are going to sniff a max contract when their time comes.

I would question whether or not Nance is part of the future. He is already 28 years old and his elite athleticism is what makes him so valuable.

Athletic big men do not age well in the NBA, least of all ones who tend to be injury prone.

The Cavs should consider shopping him this offseason if there is a trade that makes sense.

Once the decline starts, it is usually pretty rapid and by that point, it it too late.

Many teams have 2-3 guys on max deals at the same time, And max deals are also for different amounts based on service time. I don’t know whether Sexton will get the max or not, but if he does, that alone is not an indication that the entire Cavs team and how they play is being built around him. It just means that the Cavs believe in retaining the young talent that they do have and taking a chance on how their early prime years 23-27 develop. It’s one thing to argue and debate Sexton’s contract worth in a vacuum. It’s another thing entirely to apply that to the real nba world and have a viable solution if you believe he’s not worth the max. Say you believe he’s not. What’s your solution For what the Cavs should do?

 

[I'mWithDan]

The discussion is simple. Colin plays for a bad team. On bad teams, someone has to take shots and score points. Colin is both the primary shot-taker and scorer on said bad team. Trying to figure out how that translates to a good team is certainly fair especially since you also have determine how to allocate limited future resources (salary cap).

Modern guards, 22 or younger, to score 24 PPG and 4 or more AST:

Derrick Rose
Trae Young
Devin Booker
Collin Sexton

Expand it to 25 years old, just to drive home this point:

James Harden
Dwayne Wade
Allen Iverson
Gilbert Arenas
Monta Ellis
Steph Curry
Damian Lillard
Kyrie Irving
Devin Booker
Bradley Beal
Zach LaVine
Trae Young
De'Aaron Fox
Donovan Mitchell

Collin's progression:

PPG:

'19: 16.7
'20: 20.8
'21: 24.4

FG%:

'19: .430
'20: .472
'21: .485

FGA:

'19: 14.7
'20: .16.7
'21: 18.4

This is, hands down, the progression of a max player.

Increase in output and volume with an increase in efficiency is the gold standard for a scorer.

You can absolutely choose to build around a player like Collin.

 

[I'mWithDan]

I'll expand on the above to better frame:

Out of the 31 posted seasons that meet the age 25 or younger 24/4 criteria, Collin ranks:

FG%: #6
EFG: #8
TS: #16

So not only is he landing on this list but against the best young scoring seasons, he is ranking in the top half of raw FG% and the two advanced shooting calculations. That is a crazy stat to me......relative to the players on this list.

I don't know why there is so much angst with Collin among the Cavs fan base. He is absolutely on a trajectory to be an All-Star.

 

[Derek]

Modern guards, 22 or younger, to score 24 PPG and 4 or more AST:

Derrick Rose
Trae Young
Devin Booker
Collin Sexton

Expand it to 25 years old, just to drive home this point:

James Harden
Dwayne Wade
Allen Iverson
Gilbert Arenas
Monta Ellis
Steph Curry
Damian Lillard
Kyrie Irving
Devin Booker
Bradley Beal
Zach LaVine
Trae Young
De'Aaron Fox
Donovan Mitchell

Collin's progression:

PPG:

'19: 16.7
'20: 20.8
'21: 24.4

FG%:

'19: .430
'20: .472
'21: .485

FGA:

'19: 14.7
'20: .16.7
'21: 18.4

This is, hands down, the progression of a max player.

Increase in output and volume with an increase in efficiency is the gold standard for a scorer.

You can absolutely choose to build around a player like Collin.

I'll expand on the above to better frame:

Out of the 31 posted seasons that meet the age 25 or younger 24/4 criteria, Collin ranks:

FG%: #6
EFG: #8
TS: #16

So not only is he landing on this list but against the best young scoring seasons, he is ranking in the top half of raw FG% and the two advanced shooting calculations. That is a crazy stat to me......relative to the players on this list.

I don't know why there is so much angst with Collin among the Cavs fan base. He is absolutely on a trajectory to be an All-Star.

All very impressive, and I do think Sexton can be a useful piece on good teams.

However, most of this data is just noise when you consider the differences in pace and shooting even 5 years ago.

I would love to see some pace-adjusted/possession numbers along with shooting percentages relative to league-average.

10 years ago, the league's eFG% was .487 and TS% was .527.
Now, its eFG% is .537 and TS% in .571.

There are almost 10 extra possessions per team in each game now than there were 10 years ago as well! As impressive as Sexton's scoring is, there's an awful lot of context being ignored with the numbers you've posted.

 

[Rich]

Sexton has grown me a lot.

It's hard to get past his size, but there have two really exciting developments the last month.

His willingness to play w/o the ball and how effective he is at it. When he cuts, he cuts with bad intentions.

The 2nd is he's clearly figuring out how to get to the line and the refs are giving him some favorable calls.

These two things take him from a guy who would probably win a few 6th man of the year awards and make an allstar game once or twice to a guy who can make multiple allstar games.

I don't see these two things going away do I'm pretty excited.

 

[2 For The Brew]

Unless we get a really great trade offer we’re keeping Allen this off-season and Sexton next offseason.

We’re building around our young core of Allen, Sexton, Garland and Okoro. If we can keep Hartenstein at a reasonable price I’m ok with that as well. Nance might be worth extending in two years. Nobody else is worth much IMHO, but we have to pay or dump Prince, Cedi & Love.

We‘ll have plenty of cap space once we’re done with the three aforementioned vets.

 

[MirORich]

I want to be clear that when I suggest extending Sexton is a no brainer that I’m not saying to not have discussion on areas for improvement, the fit of the *current* roster, presiding and critiquing where you see his game today, etc.

Its more along the lines of it being two separate arguments:

1. A static argument in a vacuum debating the comparative worth of players in the current NBA. In this mode, I can see how some people are reticent. To them, it may feel unfair to have to pay Sexton the same amount someone like Luka or Zion will get at a similar time(although I dont believe the Cavs will need to give him the designated player Max) Ideally, we’d all want our max contracts to be LeBron, Jokic, AD, Steph, Durant, Luka, Kawhi types.

2. A realistic talk about what the Cavs need to do with Collin relative to his upcoming FA, their overall talent level, the way talent is collected in the NBA, free agency market dynamics etc.

When in discussing #1, I’m all game for people wanting to consider is Collin, in their opinion, is worth a Max deal for players under 6 years service time. Although I personally believe he already is.

But when discussing #2, unless you have a really amazing and also really realistic plan for how you move forward in a positive direction without Sexton, it makes no sense to suggest we don’t extend him for his age 23-27 seasons, even if that means we have to go all the way to max deal it get it done. If you have a scenario for that that makes sense and is realistic(ie if it involves trading him does the trade make sense for both the Cavs and the team trading for him), put it out there by all means.

 

[MirORich]

Unless we get a really great trade offer we’re keeping Allen this off-season and Sexton next offseason.

We’re building around our young core of Allen, Sexton, Garland and Okoro. If we can keep Hartenstein at a reasonable price I’m ok with that as well. Nance might be worth extending in two years. Nobody else is worth much IMHO, but we have to pay or dump Prince, Cedi & Love.

We‘ll have plenty of cap space once we’re done with the three aforementioned vets.

I would 100% include our 2021 pick in the young core we’ll try and build around. Difficult to include him without knowing exactly who it is yet, but in this draft, it will be a premium pick and someone counted on long term to be a big part of the puzzle with the other 4 people you mentioned.

 

[2 For The Brew]

I would 100% include our 2021 pick in the young core we’ll try and build around. Difficult to include him without knowing exactly who it is yet, but in this draft, it will be a premium pick and someone counted on long term to be a big part of the puzzle with the other 4 people you mentioned.

I agree but extending that player is a long way off. We don’t even know where we’ll be drafting.

 

[ryanf]

Unless we get a really great trade offer we’re keeping Allen this off-season and Sexton next offseason.

We’re building around our young core of Allen, Sexton, Garland and Okoro. If we can keep Hartenstein at a reasonable price I’m ok with that as well. Nance might be worth extending in two years. Nobody else is worth much IMHO, but we have to pay or dump Prince, Cedi & Love.

We‘ll have plenty of cap space once we’re done with the three aforementioned vets.

Wade can actually be that young 4 behind nance.

 

[daytripper]

Collin can definitely become an all star but some people have an agenda and will come up with an opposing argument regardless of what facts are presented. As Cav fans we should hope all our young guys can reach their potential.