Ideas on how to make this team a WS competitor going forward

[CDAV45]

I do not think 2021 is a flush with a proper Lindor trade. I still see the Indians as a contender. That is the reason that I do not like Gson's trading of Jose. Trading Ramirez and completing Gson's trades eliminates from contending in 2021 and possibly 2022 as well. Atlanta has been trying to find better 3B replacements for Riley and Carmargo because neither one has hit. In 2019, Waters struck out over 31% of the time between AA and AAA. He struck out 40% in his 107 at bats at AAA. Although he is a great prospect, I doubt that he will be MLB ready to start 2021 with the Indians. I am not willing to sell out on 2021 and Gson's trades would do just that. As I stated previously, giving up on 2021 while we control Bieber and outstanding starting pitching is sickening to me. Just my opinion.

John, you could be right about the return from a Lindor trade, and honestly I would be thrilled if you were. I have no crystal ball to see into the future. I certainly think it will add at least 1 good position player/prospect that could help this club immediately. However, we'll just have to agree to disagree that trading Ramirez, Lindor, and even Carrasco is throwing in the towel for the 21 and 22 seasons.

I think you're cherry picking some stats to suit your argument. No doubt that Riley has not performed to the level he did in the minors. Do you not think he'll begin to move closer to those numbers? The talent is undeniable and the possibility that he will not improve is there, but he's only 23 yrs old. I find it very likely that he does improve and probably significantly. I see him as a 260/320/500/850 hitter very soon. Maybe as soon as the 21 season.

Waters was a 20 yr old then entire 19 season. He spent the majority of that season in AA before being promoted to AAA. He slashed 309/360/459/819 as a 20 yr old at those levels. I could give a shit less if he struck out 40% of the time. If you play defense like he does, hit over 300, get on base at a 360 clip, and demonstrate that kind of extra base hit power then that 31% SO rate matters very little. He's very likely a damn site better than anything we currently have for CF. Talent, my friend is what wins. I will add that if what Ed says is true, then I'm not really interested. I'm big on humility when it comes to athletes and people in general. It's one of the reasons I think so highly of CA and MC.

I agree that letting this fantastic pitching go to waste is sickening. Trading Lindor and sitting on their hands is worse than "selling out" IMO. It's nothing short of giving up the 21 season. Mark my words, and remember this post so you can throw it my face when all is said and done. I'd be happy to eat some crow on this one.

 

[hockeyjohn]

John, you could be right about the return from a Lindor trade, and honestly I would be thrilled if you were. I have no crystal ball to see into the future. I certainly think it will add at least 1 good position player/prospect that could help this club immediately. However, we'll just have to agree to disagree that trading Ramirez, Lindor, and even Carrasco is throwing in the towel for the 21 and 22 seasons.

I think you're cherry picking some stats to suit your argument. No doubt that Riley has not performed to the level he did in the minors. Do you not think he'll begin to move closer to those numbers? The talent is undeniable and the possibility that he will not improve is there, but he's only 23 yrs old. I find it very likely that he does improve and probably significantly. I see him as a 260/320/500/850 hitter very soon. Maybe as soon as the 21 season.

Waters was a 20 yr old then entire 19 season. He spent the majority of that season in AA before being promoted to AAA. He slashed 309/360/459/819 as a 20 yr old at those levels. I could give a shit less if he struck out 40% of the time. If you play defense like he does, hit over 300, get on base at a 360 clip, and demonstrate that kind of extra base hit power then that 31% SO rate matters very little. He's very likely a damn site better than anything we currently have for CF. Talent, my friend is what wins. I will add that if what Ed says is true, then I'm not really interested. I'm big on humility when it comes to athletes and people in general. It's one of the reasons I think so highly of CA and MC.

I agree that letting this fantastic pitching go to waste is sickening. Trading Lindor and sitting on their hands is worse than "selling out" IMO. It's nothing short of giving up the 21 season. Mark my words, and remember this post so you can throw it my face when all is said and done. I'd be happy to eat some crow on this one.

Thank you for discussing the Indians in a positive way with me. We are each allowed our thoughts and opinions and each should be heard.

I honestly do not see Riley and Waters coming close to replacing the offense of Ramirez and Lindor in 2021, especially since I question whether Waters would even be be in the majors for the first month or two. As far as Riley is concerned, how many times do we see players never live up to their promise. Maybe he does or maybe he doesn't. Even if they both develop, I don't see it happening in time for the Indians to compete in 2021. Best case scenario in my opinion, is they help us compete in 2022. Worst case scenario, is one or both don't develop, or develop more slowly (like Riley already has) and then 2022 is gone as well. I have more faith that Waters develops than Riley. The fact that Atlanta continues to look for 3B help to replace Riley rather than give him a chance in their lineup scares me.

I do not know how old you are, or how long you have followed the Indians. I watched 30 years of horrible Indian baseball before the mid 90's. I don't ever want to see bad baseball again.

I could be wrong as well. We will see. I can see the Indians signing some help late in the offseason on players whose price has dropped. We all need to be patient and see what we have at the end of spring training. Then we can see if we are optimistic or not for the 2021 season.

 

[The Oi]

Indians forum fluffing itself for az’s return or something?

Had seemed pleasant.

 

[CDAV45]

Thank you for discussing the Indians in a positive way with me. We are each allowed our thoughts and opinions and each should be heard.

I honestly do not see Riley and Waters coming close to replacing the offense of Ramirez and Lindor in 2021, especially since I question whether Waters would even be be in the majors for the first month or two. As far as Riley is concerned, how many times do we see players never live up to their promise. Maybe he does or maybe he doesn't. Even if they both develop, I don't see it happening in time for the Indians to compete in 2021. Best case scenario in my opinion, is they help us compete in 2022. Worst case scenario, is one or both don't develop, or develop more slowly (like Riley already has) and then 2022 is gone as well. I have more faith that Waters develops than Riley. The fact that Atlanta continues to look for 3B help to replace Riley rather than give him a chance in their lineup scares me.

I do not know how old you are, or how long you have followed the Indians. I watched 30 years of horrible Indian baseball before the mid 90's. I don't ever want to see bad baseball again.

I could be wrong as well. We will see. I can see the Indians signing some help late in the offseason on players whose price has dropped. We all need to be patient and see what we have at the end of spring training. Then we can see if we are optimistic or not for the 2021 season.

The pleasure is mine as well. I enjoy the conversation and I would be bored to death if we all shared the same opinions/views.

Riley hasn't even had a full season's worth of AB yet. Did you feel the same way about Thome and his early struggles? I'm not saying that Riley is Thome by any stretch of the imagination, but his floor is basically Hunter Renfroe. Riley has seen parts of 2 seasons with the Braves and I don't think they are looking to replace him at all unless it is with a player that is just about a sure thing to put them over the top. Thing is, Riley could very well do that himself, but he is not done developing. How good he will become is a legitimate concern and obviously you don't see him in the same light as I do.

Waters is a better bat to ball hitter than Riley. There is no argument for that IMO, but Riley's power is hard to find and is what this team lacks. I have no reason to think that a 23 yr old with his pedigree won't improve at least a little and a little improvement with his bat could go a long, long way. We're talking 40 HR easily.

Here's my take. I find much more likely that Ramirez is dealt before his contract expires than Austin Riley not improving as a player. My argument this whole time isn't that they should trade Ramirez. It is if they intend to trade Ramirez before his contract expires, then now could be the best time to do so. If they allow all that value to evaporate like they have with Lindor then my faith in CA and MC has been misplaced.

I remember listening to the late 80's Indians with my grandfather before they were televised so frequently. They were terrible, but we sat there and listened. He took me to my first Indian's game at the Coliseum. I remember one of those f'n posts being in my way. I also remember my grandfather pointing out Joe Charboneau and telling me he could open up a bottle with his eye socket. LOL! It sounds like we're pretty close in age and I don't want to see "bad baseball" again. I don't want to see mediocre baseball any longer either. I want to see a WS title before I kick the proverbial bucket, and this is not the way to go about getting it IMO.

 

[EdMonix11]

Everything here is crapola/subjective. How do I know Ed’s source isn’t an asshole himself? How do I know that Waters isn’t misunderstood? I mean Terry Pendleton likes the kid. Christian Pache had good things to say about Waters. It’s nothing but opinion and you know what they say about those. This is the problem with social media. You can claim anything you want on any subject, but we’re not required to give any proof. It’s just out there for the whole world to see. This is what I can make of Drew Waters. He’s a confident kid that gets labeled as cocky. The articles I’ve read do not paint him in a bad light other than the article that mentions the alleged draft scandal that threatened to make him a FA. Alas, there was not enough evidence to support the accusation. He was, and really still is, a damn kid. He probably has made some bad choices like the rest of us did as young adults/older kids. Bottom line, he’s one of the best CF/OF prospects in all of baseball. To claim he’s one of the most toxic people in baseball without some hard evidence is skeptical at best. He might be a fine young man or an arrogant POS.

Merry Christmas and happy holidays to everyone.

You're free to form your own conclusions about anything. Literally everything can be subjective depending on who and what you believe. With that said, I'm not really sure what kind of "hard evidence" you're looking for.

I've been told people can't stand the kid and that he was on many teams 'do not draft' lists. I couldn't even pick the kid out of a lineup and neither could you or Gson so I'm not sure why this elicited any sort of reaction. I'm just passing along info. I don't have an opinion here.

I mentioned that Fangraphs touched on Waters' issues and The AJC wrote an expose to explain the kid's "unique" personality as well. I did this to further provide credence to what I heard. Since when do we hear anything about a player's attitude/personality, much less a minor leaguer? Like, apparently these issues aren't a secret. There's obviously some smoke there but everyone is free to draw their own conclusions. Seeing as Jake Bauers personality caused some waves within the Indians organization, I thought this was relevant seeing as Waters' name has popped up in many of the fantasy trades on here.

Carry on....

 

[CDAV45]

You're free to form your own conclusions about anything. Literally everything can be subjective depending on who and what you believe. With that said, I'm not really sure what kind of "hard evidence" you're looking for.

I've been told people can't stand the kid and that he was on many teams 'do not draft' lists. I couldn't even pick the kid out of a lineup and neither could you or Gson so I'm not sure why this elicited any sort of reaction. I'm just passing along info. I don't have an opinion here.

I mentioned that Fangraphs touched on Waters' issues and The AJC wrote an expose to explain the kid's "unique" personality as well. I did this to further provide credence to what I heard. Since when do we hear anything about a player's attitude/personality, much less a minor leaguer? Like, apparently these issues aren't a secret. There's obviously some smoke there but everyone is free to draw their own conclusions. Seeing as Jake Bauers personality caused some waves within the Indians organization, I thought this was relevant seeing as Waters' name has popped up in many of the fantasy trades on here.

Carry on....

What kind of reaction were you hoping for when you posted "FWIW, Drew Waters is one of the most toxic people in baseball. It's not a secret, either" There wasn't even an "I don't know if this is true, but.....". I want someone who actually knows Drew Waters publicly saying this kid should be avoided. Instead, all I can find is people publicly stating good things about the kid(key word). From teammates to coaches they have good things to say about Drew Waters. To listen to how Drew speaks of his teammates is also encouraging. My point is, what you say may or may not be true. It may have never been true. It may have been true, but no longer is. It may have been true and still is. Therefore your post is hearsay and opinion. Waters' name has popped up in many of our trade ideas, and for good reason. So yes, I'm carrying on.....

Jake Bauers issues isn't/wasn't anything like what your "friend" is accusing Waters of. Unless I'm mistaken Jake's issue was coachability and the need to establish/more consistent routines. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what Tito or CA publicly stated. I can't remember which. If that was truly the case, I'm surely not going to tell everyone that Jake Bauers is lazy and can't be coached. He was 24 yrs old FFS and people of all ages are capable of being better. Especially young people as the gain experience.

 

[CDAV45]

Thank you for discussing the Indians in a positive way with me. We are each allowed our thoughts and opinions and each should be heard.

I honestly do not see Riley and Waters coming close to replacing the offense of Ramirez and Lindor in 2021, especially since I question whether Waters would even be be in the majors for the first month or two. As far as Riley is concerned, how many times do we see players never live up to their promise. Maybe he does or maybe he doesn't. Even if they both develop, I don't see it happening in time for the Indians to compete in 2021. Best case scenario in my opinion, is they help us compete in 2022. Worst case scenario, is one or both don't develop, or develop more slowly (like Riley already has) and then 2022 is gone as well. I have more faith that Waters develops than Riley. The fact that Atlanta continues to look for 3B help to replace Riley rather than give him a chance in their lineup scares me.

I do not know how old you are, or how long you have followed the Indians. I watched 30 years of horrible Indian baseball before the mid 90's. I don't ever want to see bad baseball again.

I could be wrong as well. We will see. I can see the Indians signing some help late in the offseason on players whose price has dropped. We all need to be patient and see what we have at the end of spring training. Then we can see if we are optimistic or not for the 2021 season.

Hey John, I know your not a big fan of Riley due to the fact that he hasn't lit the MLB world on fire since being promoted(462 AB over 2 seasons). I got looking into his numbers and comparing them to our own Nolan Jones I was amazed at the similarity of their minor league careers.

NJ- 283/409/442/851
AR- 283/348/501/849

We would be hard pressed to find another 2 players with such similar production in large samples like these 2. Jones is 22 and because of covid has only played at the AA level. Riley was promoted and seen big league time as a 21 year old. I'm not trying to convince you of anything here or alter your opinion. I just found it interesting and thought you might as well.

 

[Gson]

Hey John, I know your not a big fan of Riley due to the fact that he hasn't lit the MLB world on fire since being promoted(462 AB over 2 seasons). I got looking into his numbers and comparing them to our own Nolan Jones I was amazed at the similarity of their minor league careers.

NJ- 283/409/442/851
AR- 283/348/501/849

We would be hard pressed to find another 2 players with such similar production in large samples like these 2. Jones is 22 and because of covid has only played at the AA level. Riley was promoted and seen big league time as a 21 year old. I'm not trying to convince you of anything here or alter your opinion. I just found it interesting and thought you might as well.

Fairly solid/factual illustration of the equivalence between these two guys.. interesting indeed..

 

[hockeyjohn]

The pleasure is mine as well. I enjoy the conversation and I would be bored to death if we all shared the same opinions/views.

Riley hasn't even had a full season's worth of AB yet. Did you feel the same way about Thome and his early struggles? I'm not saying that Riley is Thome by any stretch of the imagination, but his floor is basically Hunter Renfroe. Riley has seen parts of 2 seasons with the Braves and I don't think they are looking to replace him at all unless it is with a player that is just about a sure thing to put them over the top. Thing is, Riley could very well do that himself, but he is not done developing. How good he will become is a legitimate concern and obviously you don't see him in the same light as I do.

Waters is a better bat to ball hitter than Riley. There is no argument for that IMO, but Riley's power is hard to find and is what this team lacks. I have no reason to think that a 23 yr old with his pedigree won't improve at least a little and a little improvement with his bat could go a long, long way. We're talking 40 HR easily.

Here's my take. I find much more likely that Ramirez is dealt before his contract expires than Austin Riley not improving as a player. My argument this whole time isn't that they should trade Ramirez. It is if they intend to trade Ramirez before his contract expires, then now could be the best time to do so. If they allow all that value to evaporate like they have with Lindor then my faith in CA and MC has been misplaced.

I remember listening to the late 80's Indians with my grandfather before they were televised so frequently. They were terrible, but we sat there and listened. He took me to my first Indian's game at the Coliseum. I remember one of those f'n posts being in my way. I also remember my grandfather pointing out Joe Charboneau and telling me he could open up a bottle with his eye socket. LOL! It sounds like we're pretty close in age and I don't want to see "bad baseball" again. I don't want to see mediocre baseball any longer either. I want to see a WS title before I kick the proverbial bucket, and this is not the way to go about getting i

Hey John, I know your not a big fan of Riley due to the fact that he hasn't lit the MLB world on fire since being promoted(462 AB over 2 seasons). I got looking into his numbers and comparing them to our own Nolan Jones I was amazed at the similarity of their minor league careers.

NJ- 283/409/442/851
AR- 283/348/501/849

We would be hard pressed to find another 2 players with such similar production in large samples like these 2. Jones is 22 and because of covid has only played at the AA level. Riley was promoted and seen big league time as a 21 year old. I'm not trying to convince you of anything here or alter your opinion. I just found it interesting and thought you might as well.

Yes, It is interesting. I do realize that Ramirez will eventually be traded. However, we start trading players with three years of control, we will never see the best that any of our players will have to offer. As far as Riley's floor being Renfroe, that would be what I would be afraid of. Renfroe is good enough to have a job, but can't stick in one location for very long. My point still remains for me that this trade would kill our chances in 2021 and 2022 would depend on both players' development improving significantly . I have a problem with punting on 2021 when we control out starting pitching. That is the biggest reason that I have a problem with the proposals.

I go back to 1965 going to games with my father starting at age 7. I would listen to almost every game that was not on TV on the radio.

 

[CDAV45]

Yes, It is interesting. I do realize that Ramirez will eventually be traded. However, we start trading players with three years of control, we will never see the best that any of our players will have to offer. As far as Riley's floor being Renfroe, that would be what I would be afraid of. Renfroe is good enough to have a job, but can't stick in one location for very long. My point still remains for me that this trade would kill our chances in 2021 and 2022 would depend on both players' development improving significantly . I have a problem with punting on 2021 when we control out starting pitching. That is the biggest reason that I have a problem with the proposals.

I go back to 1965 going to games with my father starting at age 7. I would listen to almost every game that was not on TV on the radio.

You're portrayal that Renfroe is a cast off and can't keep a job is incorrect. Here's what the trade was:

Rays get: OF Hunter Renfroe, 2B Xavier Edwards, PTBNL
Padres get: OF Tommy Pham, SS/RHP Jake Cronenworth

Then he was not offered arbitration because the Rays are cutting costs too.

Not only is he pretty much a guaranteed 30+ HR guy, he plays excellent defense. You're selling him short and he's much better than anything we currently have. If that's Riley's floor(it is) then I'm on board with that. Especially when you consider the other additions from the trade ideas proposed.

We all want this team to win so how do you propose making this team a contender? Keeping Ramirez and surrounding him with what they have isn't going to do that. Hell, having Ramirez, Lindor, Hernandez, Reyes and Santana didn't do that. It didn't even come close. I expect Naylor to continue to improve because he has always been a good hitter prior to his call up, but you probably don't share that sentiment based on what you said. I have faith that Johnson can succeed if too much isn't placed on his shoulders. Mercado had a good 2019, but faded and his swing gets long real fast. Luplow hits LHP, but how many of those do we face? Chang and his minor league 257/326/436/762 is our SS. Jones hasn't played above AA and he doesn't appear to be good defensively. Miller hasn't played above AA. Freeman hasn't played above A ball. Clement is a fringe prospect. Bradley has tons of power, but his swing and miss tendencies far outweigh Riley's and Renfroe's that you seemingly want nothing to do with. Everyone here knows Zimmer. Our C's are great defensively, but can't hit a lick. Arias likely won't be ready until 22 or 23. This team doesn't have enough talent in the lineup to win. Trading Lindor will likely bring in a ready bat, but is that enough to replace what has been lost? Do you think that there is going to some quality players left in FA cheap enough for the Indians to sign? It appears that they couldn't afford to commit $3M to Dahl or Renfroe. It seems as if you're punting the 21 season and you don't even know it. Worse than that, you're likely prolonging it past the 22 season unless the prospects develop, but you have little faith in prospects developing. I guess I don't understand your POV, could you explain because I don't want to misinterpret your thoughts?

 

[hockeyjohn]

You're portrayal that Renfroe is a cast off and can't keep a job is incorrect. Here's what the trade was:

Rays get: OF Hunter Renfroe, 2B Xavier Edwards, PTBNL
Padres get: OF Tommy Pham, SS/RHP Jake Cronenworth

Then he was not offered arbitration because the Rays are cutting costs too.

Not only is he pretty much a guaranteed 30+ HR guy, he plays excellent defense. You're selling him short and he's much better than anything we currently have. If that's Riley's floor(it is) then I'm on board with that. Especially when you consider the other additions from the trade ideas proposed.

So how do you propose making this team a contender? Keeping Ramirez and surrounding him with what they have isn't going to do that. Hell, having Ramirez, Lindor, Hernandez, Reyes and Santana didn't do that. It didn't even come close. I expect Naylor to continue to improve because he has always been a good hitter prior to his call up, but you probably don't share that sentiment based on what you said. I have faith that Johnson can succeed if too much isn't placed on his shoulders. Mercado had a good 2019, but faded and his swing gets long real fast. Luplow hits LHP, but how many of those do we face? Chang and his minor league 257/326/436/762 is our SS. Jones hasn't played above AA and he doesn't appear to be good defensively. Miller hasn't played above AA. Freeman hasn't played above A ball. Clement is a fringe prospect. Bradley has tons of power, but his swing and miss tendencies far outweigh Riley's and Renfroe's that you seemingly want nothing to do with. Everyone here knows Zimmer. Our C's are great defensively, but can't hit a lick. Arias likely won't be ready until 22 or 23. This team doesn't have enough talent in the lineup to win. Trading Lindor will likely bring in a ready bat, but is that enough to replace what has been lost? Do you think that there is going to some quality players left in FA cheap enough for the Indians to sign? It appears that they couldn't afford to commit $3M to Dahl or Renfroe. It seems as if you're punting the 21 season and you don't even know it. Worse than that, you're likely prolonging it past the 22 season unless the prospects develop, but you have little faith in prospects developing. I guess I don't understand your POV, could you explain because I don't want to misinterpret your thoughts?

I didn't call Renfroe a cast off. Please don't put words in my mouth. Don't stoop to Gson's level. I see him as an average at best player.

The team is not done. They will add a MLB piece in the Lindor trade. Late in spring training they will hopefully sign a piece or two once they see what they acquire in the Lindor trade and know more about the pandemic and vaccine. Naylor will improve. Mercado will likely level off and provide some help. I also expect Reyes to improve as well. Hopefully we get a little help from the minors (Bradley, Miller, Johnson, Jones) at different points of the year. Our pitching will keep us in. Taking Ramirez out of the lineup kills 2021 for the Indians. Lindor, Santana both had down years and yet we still made the playoffs. Taking our biggest bat kills 2021 and in my opinion wastes our pitching when we know we have it. I don't see the offense that you are adding replacing what Jose will add in 2021.

We don't agree and that is fine. I am not willing to give up on 2021. I just don't see how they contend with your trade. Antonetti and Chernoff always try to balance the now with the future. I support that view. Your idea does not have that balance and that is what I am having problems with. I would have less of a problem moving Ramirez a year from now before the 2022 season when our strong farm system is more ready to produce the needed help to replace Ramirez. At that time, what they can add from two years of Ramirez, which will still be significant, plus continued progress from Reyes, Naylor, etc, should allow us a chance to contend in 2022 with our starting pitching.

On a side note, I worry about 2022 with the CBA expiring at the end of the 2021 season. With how the MLB and MLBPA work with one another, I expect a long work stoppage. That does not mean that I want them to ignore the future. I would never support that. It does place a bit more value on 2021 for me.

I hope that I explained my viewpoint.

 

[Gson]

In place of a FA signing.. here is a deal posted by "Notyou" @ BTV that defines what might be, could be or should be the path the Indians take in "filling" holes with reasonable players at very low costs:

Pirates get:
Bobby Bradley 1B
Scotty Moss LHSP &
Jose Fermin SS
Indians get:
Adam Frazier 2B/OF, who, other than 2020, was perhaps the most consistent OF'er for the Buccos
Jared Oliva MiLB OF'er w/ and ETA of 2021 & actually got into a handful of games for the Pirates in 2020.

Adam Frazier can play just about anywhere but catcher.. he's the proverbial swiss army knife.. He has two years of control before becoming a FA.. Jared Oliva is interesting and would be the property of Cleveland through 2026.. There would be no additions/deletions to the forty man.. a vitally important & crushing reality of the business side of baseball..

Thoughts?>.

 

[Gson]

I didn't call Renfroe a cast off. Please don't put words in my mouth. Don't stoop to Gson's level. I see him as an average at best player.

The team is not done. They will add a MLB piece in the Lindor trade. Late in spring training they will hopefully sign a piece or two once they see what they acquire in the Lindor trade and know more about the pandemic and vaccine. Naylor will improve. Mercado will likely level off and provide some help. I also expect Reyes to improve as well. Hopefully we get a little help from the minors (Bradley, Miller, Johnson, Jones) at different points of the year. Our pitching will keep us in. Taking Ramirez out of the lineup kills 2021 for the Indians. Lindor, Santana both had down years and yet we still made the playoffs. Taking our biggest bat kills 2021 and in my opinion wastes our pitching when we know we have it. I don't see the offense that you are adding replacing what Jose will add in 2021.

We don't agree and that is fine. I am not willing to give up on 2021. I just don't see how they contend with your trade. Antonetti and Chernoff always try to balance the now with the future. I support that view. Your idea does not have that balance and that is what I am having problems with. I would have less of a problem moving Ramirez a year from now before the 2022 season when our strong farm system is more ready to produce the needed help to replace Ramirez. At that time, what they can add from two years of Ramirez, which will still be significant, plus continued progress from Reyes, Naylor, etc, should allow us a chance to contend in 2022 with our starting pitching.

On a side note, I worry about 2022 with the CBA expiring at the end of the 2021 season. With how the MLB and MLBPA work with one another, I expect a long work stoppage. That does not mean that I want them to ignore the future. I would never support that. It does place a bit more value on 2021 for me.

I hope that I explained my viewpoint.

what level is that?..

You should apologize..

 

[hockeyjohn]

what level is that?..

You should apologize..

Your level of thinking that you know it all and your constant putting down of others that do not agree with your opinions.

 

[MadThinker88]

In place of a FA signing.. here is a deal posted by "Notyou" @ BTV that defines what might be, could be or should be the path the Indians take in "filling" holes with reasonable players at very low costs:

Pirates get:
Bobby Bradley 1B
Scotty Moss LHSP &
Jose Fermin SS
Indians get:
Adam Frazier 2B/OF, who, other than 2020, was perhaps the most consistent OF'er for the Buccos
Jared Oliva MiLB OF'er w/ and ETA of 2021 & actually got into a handful of games for the Pirates in 2020.

Adam Frazier can play just about anywhere but catcher.. he's the proverbial swiss army knife.. He has two years of control before becoming a FA.. Jared Oliva is interesting and would be the property of Cleveland through 2026.. There would be no additions/deletions to the forty man.. a vitally important & crushing reality of the business side of baseball..

Thoughts?>.

Thoughts @Gson ??
I believe part of the evaluation process is missing from what you shared. Yes you addressed why the parts from the Pirates could be useful for CLE, but nothing was provided why the Pirates could be interested in that trade package from CLE, how it addresses the needs of PIT or why it is attractive to them.

The other day I mused what the Pirates had planned for 1B (curious if Bradley or Bauers could be of interest). In reply someone noted the Pirates had K Hayes ready to take over at 3B & Colin Moran would be moving over to 1B for PIT. Without a DH in the NL in 2021 (I think its a given with the net CBA) Bradley has limited to no role for Pittsburgh if the plan is for Moran at 1B in 2021..

Even if the trade is not your idea & you think it fits for CLE, you have the opportunity to engage that poster to get & share a viewpoint with the rest of us. Maybe "Notyou" is a Tribe fan & has no insights to PIT at all. Perhaps "Notyou" is a PIT fan & they can explain why that CLE trade package is attractive to their side.