Ideas on how to make this team a WS competitor going forward

[CDAV45]

I didn't call Renfroe a cast off. Please don't put words in my mouth. Don't stoop to Gson's level. I see him as an average at best player.

The team is not done. They will add a MLB piece in the Lindor trade. Late in spring training they will hopefully sign a piece or two once they see what they acquire in the Lindor trade and know more about the pandemic and vaccine. Naylor will improve. Mercado will likely level off and provide some help. I also expect Reyes to improve as well. Hopefully we get a little help from the minors (Bradley, Miller, Johnson, Jones) at different points of the year. Our pitching will keep us in. Taking Ramirez out of the lineup kills 2021 for the Indians. Lindor, Santana both had down years and yet we still made the playoffs. Taking our biggest bat kills 2021 and in my opinion wastes our pitching when we know we have it. I don't see the offense that you are adding replacing what Jose will add in 2021.

We don't agree and that is fine. I am not willing to give up on 2021. I just don't see how they contend with your trade. Antonetti and Chernoff always try to balance the now with the future. I support that view. Your idea does not have that balance and that is what I am having problems with. I would have less of a problem moving Ramirez a year from now before the 2022 season when our strong farm system is more ready to produce the needed help to replace Ramirez. At that time, what they can add from two years of Ramirez, which will still be significant, plus continued progress from Reyes, Naylor, etc, should allow us a chance to contend in 2022 with our starting pitching.

On a side note, I worry about 2022 with the CBA expiring at the end of the 2021 season. With how the MLB and MLBPA work with one another, I expect a long work stoppage. That does not mean that I want them to ignore the future. I would never support that. It does place a bit more value on 2021 for me.

I hope that I explained my viewpoint.

Ok first off, I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. You literally stated "Renfroe is good enough to have a job, but can't stick in one location for very long". That is a cast off in my description, but I apologize anyway. This is simply a friendly conversation about our favorite team. I don't see it as a pissing match, or an opportunity to say "I told you so", or to put you down in any way.

So Naylor who hit 288/351/439/791 as a minor leaguer will improve, but Riley who hit 283/348/501/849 without the benefits of the PCL won't? Can you understand why I would question this logic?

Mercado's offensive upside is not much if he can even achieve it. If he can improve upon his 2019 then he would be fine, but I don't like those chances. Maybe a better idea is to give Johnson an opportunity to win the job. A platoon between him and Mercado could/might work.

Reyes will improve if he has some protection around him. If he doesn't then he will regress. Right now, it's not looking good, but there is plenty of offseason left.

They will not be making any significant signings because they cannot afford to do so. The only way to enable themselves to do that would be to clear some payroll. Lindor's $20M will be gone. Next up is Carrasco's $12M. Then it's Ramirez's $9M. Maybe they will trade Lindor and Carrasco in order improve this terrible offense. I wouldn't argue against that. Just taking Ramirez out of the line up would kill us in 21, but that wouldn't happen because there would be a return for him. A return far greater than the Lindor trade will provide. Trading Ramirez in 22 makes even less sense because there isn't a 3B prospect in the system that will be ready by then. One man does not make an army. If they're cutting payroll that much, then there should some room to extend Ramirez, and Bieber for that matter.

We made the playoffs because they expanded them. We finished 3rd in the AL Central. We got swept in short order. If 2020 was satisfactory for you then I understand your POV. You should be excited for 21 then because it will be much of the same except we won't have Lindor or Hernandez.

Our pitching will not keep us in it if the offense isn't significantly improved. We just witnessed it.......again.

I'm not worried about the CBA expiring because after this pandemic they cannot afford to go on strike. Professional baseball as we know it will be over if they do.

 

[CDAV45]

In place of a FA signing.. here is a deal posted by "Notyou" @ BTV that defines what might be, could be or should be the path the Indians take in "filling" holes with reasonable players at very low costs:

Pirates get:
Bobby Bradley 1B
Scotty Moss LHSP &
Jose Fermin SS
Indians get:
Adam Frazier 2B/OF, who, other than 2020, was perhaps the most consistent OF'er for the Buccos
Jared Oliva MiLB OF'er w/ and ETA of 2021 & actually got into a handful of games for the Pirates in 2020.

Adam Frazier can play just about anywhere but catcher.. he's the proverbial swiss army knife.. He has two years of control before becoming a FA.. Jared Oliva is interesting and would be the property of Cleveland through 2026.. There would be no additions/deletions to the forty man.. a vitally important & crushing reality of the business side of baseball..

Thoughts?>.

The Oliva kid caught my eye a couple of days ago. I thought he might be a good target for the Indians. Would Moss or Plutko be enough to interest them?

I do agree with what Mad said. I also read where Moran is likely to take over 1B duties and without the DH in the NL Bradley makes little sense for them. I'm not the biggest Adam Frazier fan either. He's a decent player no doubt, but we don't need another LHH. We are overloaded with LHH's.

 

[hockeyjohn]

Ok first off, I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. You literally stated "Renfroe is good enough to have a job, but can't stick in one location for very long". That is a cast off in my description, but I apologize anyway. This is simply a friendly conversation about our favorite team. I don't see it as a pissing match, or an opportunity to say "I told you so", or to put you down in any way.

So Naylor who hit 288/351/439/791 as a minor leaguer will improve, but Riley who hit 283/348/501/849 without the benefits of the PCL won't? Can you understand why I would question this logic?

Mercado's offensive upside is not much if he can even achieve it. If he can improve upon his 2019 then he would be fine, but I don't like those chances. Maybe a better idea is to give Johnson an opportunity to win the job. A platoon between him and Mercado could/might work.

Reyes will improve if he has some protection around him. If he doesn't then he will regress. Right now, it's not looking good, but there is plenty of offseason left.

They will not be making any significant signings because they cannot afford to do so. The only way to enable themselves to do that would be to clear some payroll. Lindor's $20M will be gone. Next up is Carrasco's $12M. Then it's Ramirez's $9M. Maybe they will trade Lindor and Carrasco in order improve this terrible offense. I wouldn't argue against that. Just taking Ramirez out of the line up would kill us in 21, but that wouldn't happen because there would be a return for him. A return far greater than the Lindor trade will provide. Trading Ramirez in 22 makes even less sense because there isn't a 3B prospect in the system that will be ready by then. One man does not make an army. If they're cutting payroll that much, then there should some room to extend Ramirez, and Bieber for that matter.

We made the playoffs because they expanded them. We finished 3rd in the AL Central. We got swept in short order. If 2020 was satisfactory for you then I understand your POV. You should be excited for 21 then because it will be much of the same except we won't have Lindor or Hernandez.

Our pitching will not keep us in it if the offense isn't significantly improved. We just witnessed it.......again.

I'm not worried about the CBA expiring because after this pandemic they cannot afford to go on strike. Professional baseball as we know it will be over if they do.

We finished tied for second in the AL Central and won the tie breaker with the White Sox. Cleveland was the 4th seed. We would have made the playoffs under the old system so the expanded playoffs did not have any impact for the Indians.

I never said that Riley and Waters would not improve. I do say that their improvement would not make up for the loss of Jose's bat. It seems to me that you don't expect to get any help in the Lindor trade. Are you trading Nolan Jones? He is a 3B. I really see that you are a Riley fan.

Get in the playoffs and anything can happen. Think of the Nationals in 2019. Think of the Indians in 2016. We made the 7th game of that World Series with three starters missing.

To sum it up. We don't agree on your Ramirez trade. We will see what will happen as the off season progresses. Have a good night!

 

[CDAV45]

Our good friends

We finished tied for second in the AL Central and won the tie breaker with the White Sox. Cleveland was the 4th seed. We would have made the playoffs under the old system so the expanded playoffs did not have any impact for the Indians.

I never said that Riley and Waters would not improve. I do say that their improvement would not make up for the loss of Jose's bat. It seems to me that you don't expect to get any help in the Lindor trade. Are you trading Nolan Jones? He is a 3B. I really see that you are a Riley fan.

Get in the playoffs and anything can happen. Think of the Nationals in 2019. Think of the Indians in 2016. We made the 7th game of that World Series with three starters missing.

To sum it up. We don't agree on your Ramirez trade. We will see what will happen as the off season progresses. Have a good night!

Nolan Jones is not a 3B. They're trying to get him some reps in the OF and 1B. I think he'll end up at 1B due to his lack speed and range. Otherwise he is a good athlete with a good arm so maybe a corner OF will work, but he won't have much range there. Defensively, he's following the same path as Thome IMO. You're right, I'm a Riley fan and you should be too if Ramirez is going to be dealt in the next 2 yrs.

Let's forget about the Atlanta trade idea. It's of little consequence because the likelihood of it happening are power ball remote. I'm now more interested in how you think this team will become a contender. You mentioned Ramirez's offense cannot be replaced, but the same applies to the loss of Lindor. You're not going to replace his bat or his defense at SS. Will we get some help in the Lindor trade? Sure we will, but it will be a fraction of what we would get from a Ramirez trade.

This Indians roster is nothing like the Nationals of 2019 or the 2016 Indians. We made the 2016 WS with 3 starters missing because Miller and Kluber carried us as far as they possibly could. We could also score runs as we were 6th in the league offensively that year. We were 5th again in 2017, 2nd in 2018, 15th in 2019, and 23rd in 2020. Just get there and hope for a miracle doesn't work for me because these mediocre teams will remain just that. I'd rather they rebuild and become a legit WS contender in a few years as opposed to a hope and a prayer. I would think differently if they could afford to add good players through FA and keep what they've developed past arbitration, but everyone here knows that's not going to happen.

You have a good night as well.

 

[CDAV45]

The Padres have supposedly talked to the Cubs about Darvish. Is there a match for Carrasco?

 

[Gson]

The Padres have supposedly talked to the Cubs about Darvish. Is there a match for Carrasco?

IDK about trading Carrasco.. The Padres "available" OF'ers are (Pham, Grisham and Myers) aren't Alex Verdugo-like and their best OF prospects are both 19 year old kids.. A deall with the Dads would almost certainly include a third team.. one that has ML ready or near ready OF'ers..

The Yu Darvish deal looks sooo much like the Betts/Price deal last off season:

The Red Sox trade Mookie (1 year ARB III) and David Price ( 3 yrs/$ 96 MM-$ 48 MM) to the Dodgers for Alex Verdugo, Jeter Downs and Conner Wong..

So, if the Cubs want to trade Yu Darvish (3 yrs/$ 60 MM) and Chris Bryant (1 year ARB III) to the Padres then a similar return might be CJ Abrams, Luis Campusano, and Cole Wilcox.. Cubs add up to $ 12 MM so the dollars match up..

IDK who the third team would be in a Padres/Indians/3rd team deal..

 

[Gson]

Thoughts @Gson ??
I believe part of the evaluation process is missing from what you shared. Yes you addressed why the parts from the Pirates could be useful for CLE, but nothing was provided why the Pirates could be interested in that trade package from CLE, how it addresses the needs of PIT or why it is attractive to them.

The other day I mused what the Pirates had planned for 1B (curious if Bradley or Bauers could be of interest). In reply someone noted the Pirates had K Hayes ready to take over at 3B & Colin Moran would be moving over to 1B for PIT. Without a DH in the NL in 2021 (I think its a given with the net CBA) Bradley has limited to no role for Pittsburgh if the plan is for Moran at 1B in 2021..

Even if the trade is not your idea & you think it fits for CLE, you have the opportunity to engage that poster to get & share a viewpoint with the rest of us. Maybe "Notyou" is a Tribe fan & has no insights to PIT at all. Perhaps "Notyou" is a PIT fan & they can explain why that CLE trade package is attractive to their side.

The key to the deal for the Buccos was the addition of Scotty Moss. The Pirates need for depth starting pitching was their priority. The Pirates give up barely replacement level players for what could be a more than adequate LHSP.. The Pirates also get a pretty slick fielding SS that has a chance.. Bobby Bradley, in this deal is a throw in/away or a means to an end: The Indians get something/anything of minimal value for a prospect that is now clearly heading toward the scrap heap. A poor fielding, slow, windmill who accidentally runs into a few each year.. will never work for the Indians.. Maybe a change of scenery will help Bradley.. but I doubt it..

As far as NotYou.. he's an Indians fan..

 

[CATS44]

How to make the Tribe a WS contender?

Keep doing what we have been doing for years...unless your definition is limited to only teams that actually make the Series. This team has been a WS contender for five years at least.

Pitching pitching pitching and defense...and average to slightly above average offense.

The Royals got to the Series twice by leaning heavily on their bullpen. Their offense was hardly a powerhouse, esp the first time.

Our horrid offense last season was an outlier, as I've demonstrated in other threads. It has been mostly above average since Tito took over.

How to continue going forward, with a declining payroll?

Keep stockpiling starters and back end relievers. Keep putting athletic players in the field. Find one big bat to combine with Jose and Franmil.

Get at least one solid young MLB bat as part of a package for Lindor. Get at least one more in a package for Cookie, if he is traded.

If we do that, and one of Jones or Naylor hit, we have at least an average offense. And if we can match up a platoon partner for Luplow...since he isn't gonna get a shot at regular playing time...it gets better.

As long as we have elite pitching and Jose, we have the foundation of a contender.

 

[CDAV45]

How to make the Tribe a WS contender?

Keep doing what we have been doing for years...unless your definition is limited to only teams that actually make the Series. This team has been a WS contender for five years at least.

Pitching pitching pitching and defense...and average to slightly above average offense.

The Royals got to the Series twice by leaning heavily on their bullpen. Their offense was hardly a powerhouse, esp the first time.

Our horrid offense last season was an outlier, as I've demonstrated in other threads. It has been mostly above average since Tito took over.

How to continue going forward, with a declining payroll?

Keep stockpiling starters and back end relievers. Keep putting athletic players in the field. Find one big bat to combine with Jose and Franmil.

Get at least one solid young MLB bat as part of a package for Lindor. Get at least one more in a package for Cookie, if he is traded.

If we do that, and one of Jones or Naylor hit, we have at least an average offense. And if we can match up a platoon partner for Luplow...since he isn't gonna get a shot at regular playing time...it gets better.

As long as we have elite pitching and Jose, we have the foundation of a contender.

I can go along with most of what you said here CATS, but they'll need more than just the return from Lindor. A Carrasco trade would/could certainly do that. I think the offense could be well above average in that case. Throw in this pitching staff and you have my support, even if the stars don't align.

Like it or not, the largest portion of the fanbase does not go to the ballpark to see a pitching duel. A good offense excites them, it draws them to the park. Pitching should be the most important factor, because without it no team can be successful. At the same time there needs to be a balance in order to compete with the better teams in the league. The Royals 2015 team ranked 10th in the league offensively. They were middle(17) of the pack in 2014 when the lost the WS.

 

[Steve_424]

Because I don't like the smartass "fantasy trade" title. Feel free to comment as you wish and don't worry about cluttering up the place.

Sir this is a Wendy's.

 

[CATS44]

I'm not considering the fan base game by game. Winning solves attendance problems, if the economy is okay.

Winning 3-2 is the same as 6-5, if a team does it often enough.

 

[Obscured By Clouds]

I'm not considering the fan base game by game. Winning solves attendance problems, if the economy is okay.

Winning 3-2 is the same as 6-5, if a team does it often enough.

Winning hasn't solved attendance problems in Cleveland for decades. Will the attendance go up with a winning team? Yeah, but to still crappy attendance levels.

 

[Benway]

The cash deficit appears to be forcing us to divest of MLB talent at a time when MLB talent is the cheapest (in terms of capital) that it's ever been.
Cash-on-hand may never have been a bigger player than it is this Winter.

And there's how the next few World Series competitors will be made going forward.

In my opinion, we will get nothing for Cookie and very little for Lindor unless we take contracts back. In order to move Hedges or Perez we will likely have to attach an asset or take worse money back. This is not a workable strategy if one aspires to compete in the World Series.

Ergo, get rich or die tryin'.

 

[Gson]

The cash deficit appears to be forcing us to divest of MLB talent at a time when MLB talent is the cheapest (in terms of capital) that it's ever been.
Cash-on-hand may never have been a bigger player than it is this Winter.

And there's how the next few World Series competitors will be made going forward.

In my opinion, we will get nothing for Cookie and very little for Lindor unless we take contracts back. In order to move Hedges or Perez we will likely have to attach an asset or take worse money back. This is not a workable strategy if one aspires to compete in the World Series.

Ergo, get rich or die tryin'.

disagree with all of this..

 

[Benway]

disagree with all of this..

It's pretty depressing, but fortunately only an apocalyptic vision.