Thoughts on trading Jose Ramirez

[CDAV45]

Everyone getting very defensive in here.

It’s offensive.

Bruh, defense wins championships.

 

[CDAV45]

Not sure where I got defensive. I’m posting my thoughts; same as you.

I just don’t see any way that trading Jose makes us better 2021-23, and that if you start looking to trade your stars with 3 years left on their deal then you might as well give up and shut the whole organization down.

I would at least give it until the deadline in 2022. However, I think this team is in a position to win a lot of ball games this year and next.

I apologize. It seemed to me that you were and I just wanted you to know that it wasn't an attack.

The whole "trading away star players with 3 yrs left on their deal" is a bit of an over exaggeration. There's much more to it than that and nobody is advocating trading every player with "only" 3 yrs of control left. Nobody.

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

After six games opposing batters are hitting .177 against Indians' pitching. Small sample, of course, but this staff could be very good from top to bottom. Clase, for example, has retired all nine of his hitters, five on punchouts. Bieber has 24 K's in 12.1 innings. Plesac has allowed two earned runs in 13 innings. Allen was impressive after a rocky first inning.

Franmil could be poised for a special season. In six games he has three HR's and five RBI's. Eddie Rosario, our new cleanup hitter, has five RBI's in six games. Berto has an on-base percentage of .353. This team will score more runs than last year, especially when Cesar starts hitting and Tito moves on from Bauers and Gamel, who are a combined 1-for-17 at first base and center field. Amed Rosario finally got a start in center yesterday and I expect to see him out there on a daily basis soon if not immediately.

At some point they'll move on from Bauers and try Chang or Bradley or Nolan Jones. They could put Daniel Johnson in right and move Naylor to first. There are a ton of options and all better than what we're doing now.

The Indians are 3-3 while averaging 3.5 runs per game. That number will surely go up.

The defense has been solid if not spectacular - two errors in six games. Gimenez has been excellent at short.

I agree this team can compete this season. Right now the Twins are the only AL Central team above .500.

No way they trade Jose this year. They need to see what happens at Columbus and Akron this year with their top prospects. If some of them make quantum leaps forward and show they're ready for the bigs next year, we may not have any holes to fill going into next season.

 

[Derek]

I apologize. It seemed to me that you were and I just wanted you to know that it wasn't an attack.

The whole "trading away star players with 3 yrs left on their deal" is a bit of an over exaggeration. There's much more to it than that and nobody is advocating trading every player with "only" 3 yrs of control left. Nobody.

Then why Jose? What makes this situation different than they one we’ll soon be in with Franmil and Bieber?

He’s affordable throughout his contract, and an extension seem doable. Plus, we should be in the hunt for the WC at the very least.

Personally, I don’t see why anyone has the Twins and Sox penciled in ahead of us.

 

[CDAV45]

Then why Jose? What makes this situation different than they one we’ll soon be in with Franmil and Bieber?

He’s affordable throughout his contract, and an extension seem doable. Plus, we should be in the hunt for the WC at the very least.

Personally, I don’t see why anyone has the Twins and Sox penciled in ahead of us.

I've stated numerous times that I'm fine with extending him, but I don't want to wait until his value has evaporated to trade him. You have to look at where the team is as a whole and if trading Jose fills those needs and aligns this team for a better run. This is where the "we don't know" factors in. Can't really argue it either way, I'm just saying you have to see what is offered. The reality may be that there isn't an offer worth taking.

I've also stated numerous times that I don't think this team is in contention as it is currently, and that the easy ride through the AL Central is over. I think they are close and if they intend to add a bat or one of the prospects step up then I do think they are in contention. Unfortunately, Jose won't be up to bat late every game to win it like he did against the Royals. He needs help. Franmil can help. Eddie should help. After that there isn't really any run producing bats in the lineup at this time. Maybe Naylor catches fire and Bradley is promoted and mashes. Forgive me, but I have my doubts.

I guess you didn't see why the Twins have won the division the last 2 seasons either. Have you looked at the White Sox roster or what they did in the offseason? Yes, Bieber and Plesac are as good as it gets. The same can be said for Clase, Karinchak, and Wittgren IMO. We've arguably had the best pitching since 2017 and what has that gained us? You have to be able to score runs and this team isn't good at that at all.

 

[Derek]

I've stated numerous times that I'm fine with extending him, but I don't want to wait until his value has evaporated to trade him. You have to look at where the team is as a whole and if trading Jose fills those needs and aligns this team for a better run. This is where the "we don't know" factors in. Can't really argue it either way, I'm just saying you have to see what is offered. The reality may be that there isn't an offer worth taking.

I've also stated numerous times that I don't think this team is in contention as it is currently, and that the easy ride through the AL Central is over. I think they are close and if they intend to add a bat or one of the prospects step up then I do think they are in contention. Unfortunately, Jose won't be up to bat late every game to win it like he did against the Royals. He needs help. Franmil can help. Eddie should help. After that there isn't really any run producing bats in the lineup at this time. Maybe Naylor catches fire and Bradley is promoted and mashes. Forgive me, but I have my doubts.

I guess you didn't see why the Twins have won the division the last 2 seasons either. Have you looked at the White Sox roster or what they did in the offseason? Yes, Bieber and Plesac are as good as it gets. The same can be said for Clase, Karinchak, and Wittgren IMO. We've arguably had the best pitching since 2017 and what has that gained us? You have to be able to score runs and this team isn't good at that at all.

Maybe I’m assuming wrong, but it seems like you believe 2017/18/19/20 were failures. I don’t. I enjoyed myself thoroughly and would gladly sign up for more.

And yes, I’ve seen their rosters. They’re good, but I think we are, too. Should be a fun race.

Ultimately, I don’t think the difference between a package now and the package we could get after 2022 is worth what we’d be losing.

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

Having an MVP-level player signed at below-market value for multiple years is the absolute wet dream of any organization in our financial situation. That and young, cost-controlled starting pitching are the two greatest things you can find in baseball.

We have them both. Go out there, win ballgames, and see where the chips fall.

Besides the near-certainty that trading away an MVP-level player like Jose makes you worse, I don't think it would look good for the organization, the players, or the young talent we're starting to develop from LATAM.

Time to figure out what this wave of Indians talent has. You know you have your two anchors in Jose and Bieber. Now it's up to everyone else to fill in the holes.

It wouldn't surprise me at all to see us as buyers at the 2022 deadline instead of sellers.

 

[CalBuckeyeRob]

Having an MVP-level player signed at below-market value for multiple years is the absolute wet dream of any organization in our financial situation. That and young, cost-controlled starting pitching are the two greatest things you can find in baseball.

We have them both. Go out there, win ballgames, and see where the chips fall.

Besides the near-certainty that trading away an MVP-level player like Jose makes you worse, I don't think it would look good for the organization, the players, or the young talent we're starting to develop from LATAM.

Time to figure out what this wave of Indians talent has. You know you have your two anchors in Jose and Bieber. Now it's up to everyone else to fill in the holes.

It wouldn't surprise me at all to see us as buyers at the 2022 deadline instead of sellers.

Winning does change plans. But even the recent successful Indians' teams feasted on the division weakness. Now 2 of the other 4 are actually good teams and the other 2 seem to be moving back upward. So the days of winning about 75% of the games in the Central are done. That means they need to do better against the other divisions to hang in there. The schedule gets much tougher in a hurry. By May 15 we could have a clear indication if the hitting is better than it appears or if the starters are deep enough and good enough to carry the weak offense.

 

[Lee]

They made a big offer to Lindor, he bet on himself and the market and turned it down.

But big difference with Jose. He will be 31 when this contract is up. I think they will make a big offer to keep him, but the market wont want to pay him 300+ million for 10 years at 31, and we have a shot at keeping Jose.

I know some of you think i am crazy, but the Dolans paid Encarcian 20 mill a year a few years ago, I think they will offer a 150-175 mill contract to Jose and will also try to do the pre-arb restructure contracts to keep a couple of our better pitchers.

The took the opportunity to reload the minors but didnt get rid of our best pitchers they wanted to keep. Trevor made himself a problem in managements opinion, Kluber was done, and Clevinger was too much like Trevor. If we are a contender, they have proven to be ok with a 130 mill payroll or so, i think we will see them resign some players and maybe 1 splash free agent in a couple years depending how the young position players shake out.

I really think this thread is pointless at this point. But if you want to argue with almost 3 years left on his contract, go ahead.

We lost Lindor, but that was 100% on him, he chased the money, premium defensive and offensive player at a premium position and he turned down a big contract to get a ridiculous contract at 4 years younger than Jose will be meaning Jose will only get a 6 year contract which the Dolans will be more ok with.

 

[sportscoach]

Honestly our division is stronger than it has been, but we aren't as weak as the national media thinks either.

We have a top 8 pitching staff, without a doubt. Arm talent and potential is too good for us not too at the end of the day and honestly that will keep us in almost every ball game..

When it comes to the lineup, Hernandez, Eddie and Reyes I think will all hit around JRam. Take JRam out of the lineup, we really would be punting the season then cause of proven production in the lineup elsewhere.

If we didn't go out and resign Hernandez and sign Eddie, I would have said, trade JRam since we need the talent from the deal to fill in the holes, but with us signing those guys, that tells me the FO doesn't want to rebuild and a guy like JRam wants to be kept long term. If we don't extend him, he won't be traded until 22 trade deadline if we are out of contention or before the 23 season at the current moment. That's what the FO is saying and right now they are going for it, so unless we get a major haul, we have no reason to move JRam.

 

[CalBuckeyeRob]

Honestly our division is stronger than it has been, but we aren't as weak as the national media thinks either.

We have a top 8 pitching staff, without a doubt. Arm talent and potential is too good for us not too at the end of the day and honestly that will keep us in almost every ball game..

When it comes to the lineup, Hernandez, Eddie and Reyes I think will all hit around JRam. Take JRam out of the lineup, we really would be punting the season then cause of proven production in the lineup elsewhere.

If we didn't go out and resign Hernandez and sign Eddie, I would have said, trade JRam since we need the talent from the deal to fill in the holes, but with us signing those guys, that tells me the FO doesn't want to rebuild and a guy like JRam wants to be kept long term. If we don't extend him, he won't be traded until 22 trade deadline if we are out of contention or before the 23 season at the current moment. That's what the FO is saying and right now they are going for it, so unless we get a major haul, we have no reason to move JRam.

The FO is saying that because they believe they can contend. But belief and record don't always match up. If they struggle and are about 45-55 near the deadline, they will be inviting phone calls on trading Jose.

 

[sportscoach]

The FO is saying that because they believe they can contend. But belief and record don't always match up. If they struggle and are about 45-55 near the deadline, they will be inviting phone calls on trading Jose.

But they don't have to trade JRam so they have a minimum offer in place and likely thats not something most teams would be willing to meet honestly

 

[MadThinker88]

But they don't have to trade JRam so they have a minimum ASKING PRICE in place and likely thats not something most teams would be willing to meet honestly

small edit: asking price (by CLE) not offer

Additionally: dealing JRam in any case where more pieces come back then what goes out will most likely have impacts when trying to adjust the roster to get ready for the R5 in mid-November. Very few deals out there where JRam is dealt 1-for-1 (& in those cases the other player is making way more money)...

 

[CDAV45]

Maybe I’m assuming wrong, but it seems like you believe 2017/18/19 were failures. I don’t. I enjoyed myself thoroughly and would gladly sign up for more.

And yes, I’ve seen their rosters. They’re good, but I think we are, too. Should be a fun race.

Ultimately, I don’t think the difference between a package now and the package we could get after 2022 is worth what we’d be losing.

Winning the weakest division in baseball and getting booted from the playoffs in the 1st round(2017 & 2018) and not making the playoffs in 2019 is an absolute failure in my mind. I'd probably think differently if they would have won the divisional series either of those years.

Well, at least we understand each other and our difference is opinion. I can respect that for sure.

 

[CDAV45]

Honestly our division is stronger than it has been, but we aren't as weak as the national media thinks either.

We have a top 8 pitching staff, without a doubt. Arm talent and potential is too good for us not too at the end of the day and honestly that will keep us in almost every ball game..

When it comes to the lineup, Hernandez, Eddie and Reyes I think will all hit around JRam. Take JRam out of the lineup, we really would be punting the season then cause of proven production in the lineup elsewhere.

If we didn't go out and resign Hernandez and sign Eddie, I would have said, trade JRam since we need the talent from the deal to fill in the holes, but with us signing those guys, that tells me the FO doesn't want to rebuild and a guy like JRam wants to be kept long term. If we don't extend him, he won't be traded until 22 trade deadline if we are out of contention or before the 23 season at the current moment. That's what the FO is saying and right now they are going for it, so unless we get a major haul, we have no reason to move JRam.

This makes no sense in this discussion. Well hell yes you'd be punting the season by simply removing Ramirez. What the return is makes or breaks the idea. For me, if it's only highly rated minor leaguers that are not ready then I'm definitely not on board with that.

I think they are close to going for it, but CF, 1B, and even RF are preventing them from being real competitors. I'm not saying all 3 of those spots need to have all world hitters, but 2 of them have to be better than what they currently have. That pretty much means that Naylor's boat hasn't sailed with me yet and that he could still fill that role. Emphasis on could.